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[Music]

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hello this is martin willis your host

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welcome to the everything else show

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it's going to be a great one tonight

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um you know several months ago one of my

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friends uh

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contacted me and said hey you gotta

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watch this

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series on netflix it's really something

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else

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so i watched the first show of making a

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murder and it was like wow you know it's

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interesting but then i started to watch

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a second one

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and i

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was hooked i had to watch

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you know like once or twice a day i'd be

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tuning in and watching and i couldn't

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get over how many twists and turns

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of events that were uh stranger than

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fiction if you ask me i kept shaking my

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head and thinking how could this stuff

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really happen

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now i realize that there are two camps

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uh

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when it comes to this case the stephen

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avery case and uh one of them being that

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uh avery was framed for the uh teresa

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halbach murder back in 2005.

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and uh you know i got to tell you i was

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part of that camp uh as i was watching

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this series

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uh you know toward the end and camp two

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is the uh he done it camp

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and uh which i have to say that i've

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actually moved over to

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and that's only after i looked into this

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really deeply from all angles and we're

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going to talk about that

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tonight some of the things that changed

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my mind

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and i'm not here tonight to try to

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change anyone's mind at all

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just to talk about

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evidence things that have

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uh not planted evidence but just plain

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evidence that have you know has come out

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um

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and i've already been attacked by the

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uh avery's innocent uh camp and that's

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okay

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um

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you know we do have a chat room and uh

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the chat room here live if you'd like to

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join it and ask great questions that's

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wonderful but please keep it clean play

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nice

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tonight's guest

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is michael griezbach and michael is

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a manitowoc county prosecutor

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and has been the assistant district

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attorney since 1991

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he stresses that tonight's interview

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his books and his comments about avery

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related cases are his alone

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that he does not speak for any

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prosecutor's office or the wisconsin

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innocent innocence project where he was

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a former board member

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well with that i would like to introduce

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our guest tonight

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uh mike i would uh like for

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the person that has

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never really

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watched making a murderer um if you can

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just give a real quick um overview of

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going all the way back to the 1985 case

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but as quickly as you can the two-minute

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version if you can possibly do that on

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what happened uh with uh stephen

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avery to begin with which was an

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atrocity if you ask me

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like to okay i think it's can you hear

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me joseph

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i can mark you yes you hear me okay

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okay i'm so sorry about that i think

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we're on the same page now you were

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asking about a quick overview of the yes

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you did hear that okay

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okay i did all right so yes for those uh

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who don't know um the stephen avery case

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and really it's a 30-year saga at this

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point uh it started in 1985 and

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he was charged and convicted at trial of

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a brutal assault a rape and an attempted

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murder charge on the lake michigan

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shoreline here in manitou county

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uh in a summer day in 1985

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he spent 18 years in prison

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because of that conviction now six of

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those years six of the 18

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were actually the result of a concurrent

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uh sentence for a crime that he was

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rightfully convicted of

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uh that he pled into that was actually

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those who watch making a murderer will

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be familiar with it

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because it involved his ramming a

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a vehicle into

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a woman's vehicle his cousin actually i

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think a second cousin who lived up the

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road and then holding her at gunpoint

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he pled guilty to that that was sort of

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passed off in the documentary making a

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murderer as

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a sort of

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awkward way of getting back at her

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because she spread some rumors uh

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notwithstanding that he had been

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basically stalking the woman for months

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including running

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out before her vehicle as it passed by

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or right after

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wearing nothing

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he was

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looking at her with binoculars over the

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time

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prior to this and many occasions

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and

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it's just an example that i'm sure we'll

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get into later but it's an example of

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sort of the distortion and making a

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murder

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the fact that

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a serious crime led to a six-year prison

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sentence uh for

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uh something that they passed off as

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really a poor reaction uh not knowing

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how to react to someone who he said at

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least on the show was spreading rumors

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um

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so he nevertheless you know whether it's

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frankly whether he's 12 or 18 uh 12 is

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an awful long time

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as well to sit in prison and he did

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two appeals went through

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uh both appeals failed

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um finally the wisconsin innocence

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project got ahold of the case and in

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2003 the wisconsin state crime lab uh

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conducted a test um at the

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after a motion by the wisconsin

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innocence project requested it

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um

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and fought by the district attorney at

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the time by the way

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um and uh the tests showed a dna test

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that there was really the last bit of

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physical evidence from that 1985 case it

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was a hair

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um located upon the victim uh

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at the time of the at the assault uh

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taken at the hospital and that here

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belonged to gregory allen the true

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assailant

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so uh myself and the d.a at the time

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very carefully reviewed the file you

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know we didn't want to re

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just release mr avery on the strength of

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one literally one hair

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um after a jury had found him guilty and

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uh his case was appealed and affirmed

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twice at the at the appellate court

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level

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and so we reviewed it um over the next

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couple days and found very quickly uh

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corroborated that there's no way

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that he committed this crime indeed it

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was a horrendous uh injustice

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um that he was convicted of that first

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crime we stipulated with the wisconsin

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innocence project to have mr avery

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released so that takes us up to 2003 i

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know this is getting kind of long but

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it's a long story and i'll try to

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shorten it up here but

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the rest of the story folks mostly know

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about anyhow but

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uh 2003 he's exonerated he becomes sort

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of a folk hero in the state of wisconsin

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they had even named a crime reform bill

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after mr avery the avery bill

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that was due to be signed

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on the very day that teresa halbach

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a freelance photographer in wisconsin

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went missing

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on october 31st halloween of 2005.

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and uh within

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four or five five days actually of her

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disappearance her vehicle a rav 4

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was found on

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the avery salvage yard where stephen and

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his parents and a few of his brothers

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both lived and worked

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and the victim teresa habak's vehicle

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was found there partially concealed

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part of a hood of a different vehicle

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was over over it as well as some i think

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some boards and tree limbs and that sort

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of thing

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and as the investigation went on it it

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and of course this is the dispute but

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uh it appears uh well i don't think

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there's any question that physical

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evidence a great deal deal of physical

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evidence uh

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uh

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avery was the assailant

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and

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after a

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very contentious trial

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uh a six-week long trial he was

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convicted

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of most charges the mutilation of the

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corpse charge was dismissed or found he

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was acquitted of that by the jury and a

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sex assault charge

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was

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withdrawn by the state after the state

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did not use a co-defendant brendan

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dassey's

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statement outlining

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his view or his rendition of what

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occurred

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with him and mr avery so that's what

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happened in 2005 he was convicted the

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case we thought was done here in

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manitowoc county um

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i mean there's been appeals there were

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appeals

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both stephen avery and brenda dassey

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so we thought we finally put this case

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to rest frankly um

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and in 2015 in december of 2015 of

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course uh this story

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uh was resurrected uh in a big way

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on

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netflix with the documentary making a

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murderer

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and since then uh it's really

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had a life of its own uh once again so

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that's sort of a thumbnail sketch i

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guess uh martin of of the events over

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this 30-year period yes yes and um you

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know from you know one of the questions

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i was going to ask you is you know if if

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this wrong

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conviction

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you know did not happen

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you know um what your thoughts on

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would be on you know what type of person

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steven avery would have been going

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through life you know he probably

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wouldn't have murdered anyone but who

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knows you know

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the thing with the cat is

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you know very disturbing

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um you know anytime i ever hear anything

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like that you know and

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yeah you're referring to the to an

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incident actually that the pro-avery

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folks get very upset if we even bring it

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up because

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they're saying just because that

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happened

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and the that being that stephen avery

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poured oil and gas on a cat and threw it

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in the fire and by at least some

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accounts

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when the cat jumped out of the fire

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stephen threw it back in

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the pro-avery folks will say unfair to

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bring that up and

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because it doesn't prove that he later

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00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:40,880
committed murder of course it doesn't

286
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:43,600
prove he later committed a murder

287
00:11:46,870 --> 00:11:45,760
but it does go to show

288
00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:46,880
somewhat

289
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:48,880
of what he was like it should not be

290
00:11:54,389 --> 00:11:51,600
admitted and was not admitted in a trial

291
00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:54,399
you know but at this point this is a

292
00:11:59,350 --> 00:11:56,399
question that's hotly debated

293
00:12:02,389 --> 00:11:59,360
um it's a question um

294
00:12:03,829 --> 00:12:02,399
that has been been thrown out there by a

295
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:03,839
very well

296
00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:08,790
healed company called if there is such a

297
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:12,639
thing called netflix and a very uh

298
00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:14,639
sophisticated production

299
00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:17,600
of folks that have suggested um and

300
00:12:22,629 --> 00:12:20,160
really manipulated in my view and others

301
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:22,639
views uh the view that stephen avery is

302
00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:24,560
innocent and

303
00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:27,120
they distorted that incident and to me

304
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:31,120
it seems only fair uh to to show to shed

305
00:12:36,389 --> 00:12:34,160
the light on that incident uh as to how

306
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:36,399
it actually occurred it wasn't some

307
00:12:41,829 --> 00:12:39,440
childish prank but we really do get a

308
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:41,839
bit lost in some of the background

309
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:44,399
information because uh when it's all

310
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:47,200
said and done um of course his guilt or

311
00:12:53,670 --> 00:12:50,399
innocence rests on on the facts related

312
00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:53,680
to the homicide itself yes um but you

313
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:55,440
brought a broader question martin i

314
00:12:59,829 --> 00:12:58,160
think it seems to me it goes to um

315
00:13:02,069 --> 00:12:59,839
you know what kind of person was steven

316
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:02,079
avery would stephen avery of

317
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:05,040
have done this kind of act um

318
00:13:10,389 --> 00:13:07,680
if if there wasn't uh a wrongful

319
00:13:12,389 --> 00:13:10,399
conviction in 1985 perhaps if if that's

320
00:13:15,030 --> 00:13:12,399
somewhat what you're getting yes um you

321
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:15,040
know i know it's just speculation and

322
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:16,079
you know i mean

323
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:17,680
i know there was some

324
00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:19,440
you know abuse

325
00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:20,720
you know and a lot of things that could

326
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:22,800
never be admissible in court you know

327
00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:25,360
was um his past abuse

328
00:13:30,150 --> 00:13:28,800
um issues that have come up and uh

329
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:30,160
and then also

330
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:32,800
a um an interview

331
00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:35,040
i think it was last year sometime

332
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:37,760
um with you know his former girlfriend

333
00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:38,959
that

334
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:42,639
uh was pretty uh another bombshell

335
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:48,389
well there's no question that um

336
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:50,240
i mean you write it as speculation in

337
00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:52,160
terms of what he would have done it

338
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:54,880
always is but there's no question that

339
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,040
um stephen avery

340
00:14:01,590 --> 00:13:59,519
had a real propensity for violence i

341
00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:01,600
don't think even his most ardent

342
00:14:06,870 --> 00:14:03,680
supporters would say he didn't

343
00:14:09,269 --> 00:14:06,880
and a propensity for um

344
00:14:10,629 --> 00:14:09,279
for sexually acting out i guess that's

345
00:14:11,829 --> 00:14:10,639
the only way i can say it in an

346
00:14:15,750 --> 00:14:11,839
aggressive

347
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:15,760
um unconsented to way

348
00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:18,240
you know and the the incident where he

349
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:20,880
pulled over a woman at gunpoint that i

350
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:22,880
described earlier and

351
00:14:28,949 --> 00:14:25,519
pretty clearly wanted her to get into

352
00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:31,430
after ramming her car this woman he had

353
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:33,920
been basically stalking

354
00:14:39,670 --> 00:14:36,959
um in some pretty deviant weird uh

355
00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:39,680
details to it you know he was a pretty

356
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:42,639
messed up fellow why you know that's

357
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:44,639
another question and maybe that goes

358
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:47,680
back generations um and maybe

359
00:14:51,269 --> 00:14:48,959
you know in some

360
00:14:52,550 --> 00:14:51,279
some theoretical sense it's not his

361
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:52,560
fault

362
00:14:58,629 --> 00:14:55,279
but you know when you're an adult um and

363
00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:58,639
and time goes on and

364
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:01,040
one of our judges used to say

365
00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:03,519
to cases where a person had a really

366
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:05,920
tough childhood

367
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:09,120
and including instances of abuse and

368
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:10,800
neglect

369
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:13,600
and then committed a sexual assault

370
00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:14,720
himself

371
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:17,040
uh you know and the person would rely on

372
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:18,959
what happened to him and say but judge

373
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:21,519
this is what i experienced as a kid

374
00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:23,519
and it sounded harsh but the judge's

375
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:25,920
line would be that in 75 cents i'll get

376
00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:27,839
you a cup of coffee

377
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:29,839
and i think what he meant is you know we

378
00:15:33,269 --> 00:15:31,360
hear ya

379
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:33,279
and we understand what you went through

380
00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:36,079
but it's not going to help in terms of

381
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:38,160
the victim the new victim that you

382
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:41,360
created and you have to figure out a way

383
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:44,639
um to change is and easier said than

384
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:47,040
done for all of us uh many of us

385
00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:48,800
fortunately grew up in

386
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:50,800
you know families of

387
00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:52,720
loving and supportive families so it's

388
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:54,959
really easy to say i see this all the

389
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:56,399
time in court

390
00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:59,199
and i try to understand because you do

391
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:01,440
have to understand

392
00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:03,920
but you also have to

393
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:06,160
remember

394
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:08,959
personal responsibility and especially

395
00:16:13,749 --> 00:16:11,680
in a case like this i mean this was as

396
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:13,759
brutal as vicious

397
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,240
of an act and this is close to jeffrey

398
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:18,480
dahmer kind of stuff frankly

399
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:19,680
um

400
00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:25,920
stephen avery yes but you mostly think

401
00:16:31,749 --> 00:16:29,360
or equally think frankly or should think

402
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:31,759
of what a danger he is to others and

403
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:34,800
what a tragedy this was to uh to this

404
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:37,600
poor woman and her family absolutely um

405
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:39,839
so would stephen avery have turned would

406
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:41,600
he have been capable of this i don't

407
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:43,279
know you know there is a

408
00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:46,240
step in my experience 29 years of doing

409
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:48,560
this stuff and i've i've prosecuted

410
00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:49,440
several

411
00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:52,959
murder cases and sex assault cases and

412
00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:55,519
you name it you know and i've dealt with

413
00:17:00,870 --> 00:16:57,920
some really cold people dealt with some

414
00:17:02,870 --> 00:17:00,880
really dangerous people

415
00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:02,880
but there's a line

416
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:05,520
and only a few people it seems to me

417
00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:07,199
that we come across

418
00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:09,919
um are capable of crossing that line

419
00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:12,640
where it's such a vicious thing it's

420
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:14,400
it's over the top

421
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:16,240
uh and this crime

422
00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:18,000
that i believe stephen avery committed

423
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:19,760
was over the top now whether he would

424
00:17:22,230 --> 00:17:20,640
have been

425
00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:22,240
over the tops

426
00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:24,559
not a very good description of it but it

427
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:26,559
it just is something that few people

428
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:29,360
it's so monstrous that very few people

429
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:31,440
are capable of inflicting that kind of

430
00:17:34,870 --> 00:17:32,880
evil and pain

431
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:34,880
on another person there's a lot of

432
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:36,880
messed up people that do horrible things

433
00:17:41,669 --> 00:17:39,440
to to others to victims

434
00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:41,679
uh and i don't know you know whether

435
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:45,120
stephen avery his prior crimes didn't as

436
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:47,200
bad as they were they certainly didn't

437
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:48,880
reach this level

438
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:51,760
and you know is that because he did 18

439
00:17:57,029 --> 00:17:53,600
years in prison

440
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:57,039
um 12 of which he

441
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,080
shouldn't have done um

442
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:02,400
i you know ultimately only he and

443
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:04,880
brendan dassey were responsible but it's

444
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:07,280
still a valid question to ask and and to

445
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:10,000
ponder i think i've pondered it myself

446
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:11,600
and a lot of folks don't like it when i

447
00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:13,360
pondered it yeah

448
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,360
so well you know i could i could see

449
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:17,840
where the wrongful conviction i mean the

450
00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:20,640
resentment that um you know is such a

451
00:18:25,990 --> 00:18:23,520
poison and can be to the brain

452
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:26,000
you know um do they still call that bill

453
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:28,000
that was signed the avery bill or did

454
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:30,480
they change the name of that

455
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:33,280
now they changed it to a very uh vanilla

456
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:34,960
sounding name i think the criminal

457
00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:37,360
justice reform act or something like

458
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:38,240
that

459
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:39,039
uh

460
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:41,039
you know stephen avery spoke and i i

461
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:42,880
referenced this in the first book that

462
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:45,360
the american bear association published

463
00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:47,440
that i did long before making a murderer

464
00:18:52,310 --> 00:18:50,400
by the way um called the innocent killer

465
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:52,320
he spoke with a journalist from the

466
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,400
milwaukee journal sentinel i think it

467
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:56,160
was bill james

468
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:57,039
um

469
00:19:02,870 --> 00:19:00,480
about a year after he was exonerated and

470
00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:02,880
which would be about a year before he

471
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:05,360
murdered teresa halbach and avery was

472
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:08,559
sort of reminiscing about uh the days in

473
00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:10,799
in prison that he spent almost as if he

474
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:12,880
missed it uh he was

475
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:14,320
he was uh

476
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:16,080
speaking about how it used to be when

477
00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:17,679
he'd sit out in the prison yard and

478
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:21,039
watch the jets fly by you know the the

479
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:22,400
jet stream

480
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:24,640
and that he just couldn't take it

481
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:28,080
anymore uh some days uh it just gets to

482
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:29,760
his head and he'd have to take a drive

483
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,240
he said too much going on inside of his

484
00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:34,480
head i think was the word he used

485
00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:36,400
so you know you wonder and remember he

486
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:39,679
moved into an ice chamber

487
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:42,559
shortly after in that that confined

488
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:44,720
setting uh

489
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:47,600
you you just wonder if that hadn't kind

490
00:19:51,669 --> 00:19:50,559
of become his home and the deterrence

491
00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:51,679
that

492
00:19:56,230 --> 00:19:54,160
the idea of sitting spending the rest of

493
00:19:58,549 --> 00:19:56,240
your life in prison would have for some

494
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:58,559
folks and hopefully most people

495
00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:01,039
um it may have not have been there with

496
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,880
stephen avery because

497
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:04,799
he kind of knew he was destined to go

498
00:20:09,669 --> 00:20:07,440
back there i think and uh this speaks

499
00:20:12,150 --> 00:20:09,679
also to the issue of some people

500
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:12,160
say well why would someone you know on

501
00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:14,480
the cusp of making millions

502
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:16,320
uh wouldn't have been 36 million but it

503
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:18,320
very well might have been you know five

504
00:20:23,190 --> 00:20:20,559
six seven million uh why would someone

505
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,200
like that throw it all away uh by

506
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,200
murdering someone well

507
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:28,080
you know a couple reasons stephen avery

508
00:20:33,909 --> 00:20:31,919
uh maybe was going home and uh equally

509
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:33,919
uh important i think and maybe even more

510
00:20:37,669 --> 00:20:35,600
to the point is stephen avery couldn't

511
00:20:40,630 --> 00:20:37,679
help himself um

512
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:40,640
even in that that two-year span prior to

513
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:42,640
the murder of teresa halbach he had

514
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:45,120
involved himself in

515
00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:47,039
some very serious criminal activity

516
00:20:52,149 --> 00:20:49,679
including a sex assault that was pending

517
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:52,159
in brown county uh

518
00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:55,840
yeah yeah and also the jody stakowski

519
00:21:01,669 --> 00:20:57,919
incident that was a referred charge

520
00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:01,679
police reports where ms stakowski

521
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:04,320
uh described to the police how stephen

522
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:05,280
uh

523
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:09,520
passed out

524
00:21:12,549 --> 00:21:11,039
he dragged her out of the house

525
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:12,559
threatened to kill her

526
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:16,320
um i mean this was a violent um messed

527
00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:17,280
up

528
00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:20,320
fella after he got out of prison

529
00:21:26,230 --> 00:21:24,559
and uh so it should really not have been

530
00:21:29,029 --> 00:21:26,240
uh

531
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:29,039
you know the argument that

532
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:31,200
that why would someone throw that away

533
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:32,960
when he had everything going for him

534
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:35,039
well steven avery never had everything

535
00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:36,480
going for him

536
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:38,880
uh in his life and the prospect of

537
00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:40,799
making all that money didn't change you

538
00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:43,520
know a lot of times there's um there's a

539
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:45,919
fear that's involved with

540
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:48,720
a success or a windfall

541
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:49,919
and that

542
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:52,320
and it's a gripping fear

543
00:21:56,789 --> 00:21:55,440
and you hear a lot of times about people

544
00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:56,799
that have

545
00:22:00,950 --> 00:21:59,679
sabotaged themselves on the cusp of

546
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:00,960
success

547
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:03,280
because of fear related issues and you

548
00:22:08,310 --> 00:22:06,159
know i mean um only he really knows that

549
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:08,320
but uh you know that

550
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:11,120
it's an interesting psychology because i

551
00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:13,600
sure you do do hear stories like that

552
00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:14,400
they

553
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:18,799
of actually being successful and then

554
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:20,480
you think of all the people who throw

555
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:24,000
away um success too of course

556
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:26,880
that's right um so your involvement i

557
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,240
know you mentioned earlier the 1985

558
00:22:34,390 --> 00:22:32,320
you know the innocence project you were

559
00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:34,400
involved in that which is great because

560
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:36,159
it is that was such a horrific thing

561
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:37,760
that happened and we i want to talk a

562
00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:40,320
little bit about how that was handled in

563
00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:42,640
and so poorly and everything did you

564
00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:45,280
have any involvement at all in the uh

565
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:51,190
uh the only involvement i had was uh

566
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:53,120
that i was on call as one of the

567
00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:55,360
prosecutors i think i was uncle i was

568
00:23:00,470 --> 00:22:57,520
either on call or the d.a

569
00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:00,480
who was my campaign manager when i had

570
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:03,200
run for d.a it's a long story not too

571
00:23:08,870 --> 00:23:04,960
relevant but i had actually won an

572
00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:08,880
election not taken office and then

573
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:10,960
my friend and campaign manager was

574
00:23:16,310 --> 00:23:12,880
appointed by the governor

575
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:16,320
uh to take the term that i won uh mark

576
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:19,280
rohr and i stayed on as his assistant

577
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:22,080
d.a mark really didn't have

578
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:23,919
much in the way well no prosecutor

579
00:23:28,630 --> 00:23:25,919
experience and in the early days which

580
00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:28,640
is when the avery case happened

581
00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:29,600
i

582
00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:46,960
forget um

583
00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:49,360
at that point um

584
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:52,400
teresa was listed as a missing person it

585
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:55,679
was not you know a homicide uh

586
00:24:00,789 --> 00:23:57,520
investigation at that point there was

587
00:24:02,470 --> 00:24:00,799
certainly concern um that there was

588
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:02,480
you know she had been missing by that

589
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:05,039
point for four or five five days i

590
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:07,360
believe and obviously there was a huge

591
00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:08,720
concern but

592
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:10,640
it was not a technical

593
00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:12,559
criminal investigation at that point it

594
00:24:17,590 --> 00:24:14,960
was a missing person investigation

595
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:17,600
but once they found the vehicle

596
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:19,520
they needed assistance

597
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:22,000
from the prosecutors in the county where

598
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:23,360
um

599
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:26,159
where the property was that needed to be

600
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:28,480
looked at and we

601
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:29,840
assisted with

602
00:24:33,510 --> 00:24:32,240
search warrants and that sort of thing

603
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:33,520
um

604
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:37,039
that night what had been kind of a crisp

605
00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:41,120
fall beautiful clear day

606
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:44,559
that night turned into this driving cold

607
00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:47,520
windy rain uh there was a mobile crime

608
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:50,799
lab there unit uh from the crime lab the

609
00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:52,960
wisconsin crime lab there and they had

610
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:55,200
these uh i guess i'll never forget that

611
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:57,840
that image in my mind they had this

612
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:59,120
plastic

613
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,200
kind of covering to keep this heavy

614
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:03,520
driving cold rain

615
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:04,799
away

616
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:06,960
and it was flapping in the wind and

617
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:09,120
there were you know police dogs barking

618
00:25:16,549 --> 00:25:10,320
and

619
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:16,559
um i can just hear by the way as i'm

620
00:25:21,190 --> 00:25:18,880
saying this all the reddit folks the

621
00:25:22,870 --> 00:25:21,200
pro-avery folks uh dreaming up more

622
00:25:25,350 --> 00:25:22,880
conspiracy theories

623
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:25,360
uh as i'm describing this

624
00:25:31,110 --> 00:25:28,880
uh but we we got out uh we as you know

625
00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:31,120
we uh as you might not know i don't know

626
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:33,919
but we we removed ourselves uh the

627
00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:36,159
district attorney's office from

628
00:25:40,630 --> 00:25:38,880
the case uh we felt we had a conflict of

629
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:40,640
interest um

630
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:43,360
and made that call due to the fact that

631
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:46,159
uh the county uh was being sued in the

632
00:25:51,269 --> 00:25:47,760
wrongful conviction

633
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:51,279
lawsuit and the prior d.a nothing to do

634
00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:53,919
with us but the prior d.a was named

635
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:57,120
personally in the lawsuit as well so

636
00:26:00,710 --> 00:25:58,799
i think people recognize that it was

637
00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:00,720
good call for us to get out and we got

638
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:02,480
completely out

639
00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:04,080
once it was clear that this was a

640
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:06,559
homicide investigation

641
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:08,080
of course the sheriff's department did

642
00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:08,960
not

643
00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:14,000
completely out and

644
00:26:17,350 --> 00:26:16,000
i've taken a bit of a

645
00:26:19,990 --> 00:26:17,360
certain amount of heat from our

646
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:20,000
sheriff's department for suggesting in

647
00:26:24,149 --> 00:26:22,559
interviews over the last year that

648
00:26:26,549 --> 00:26:24,159
they should have you know either have a

649
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:26,559
conflict or you don't and you can't be

650
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:27,440
half

651
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:30,000
in and uh despite

652
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:31,760
good reasons uh

653
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:33,919
for their remaining um

654
00:26:39,029 --> 00:26:36,320
in terms of manpower and who had

655
00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:39,039
evidence texts and who didn't and what

656
00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:41,200
precautions they put in

657
00:26:44,870 --> 00:26:42,159
to

658
00:26:46,789 --> 00:26:44,880
prevent later accusations of evidence

659
00:26:48,310 --> 00:26:46,799
planning

660
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:48,320
none of that works

661
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:50,320
you just you either have a conflict or

662
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:52,400
you don't you don't take half measures

663
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:53,840
and they should have completely

664
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:56,400
withdrawn from from the scene right yes

665
00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:58,799
um the key is you know one of the tricky

666
00:27:01,510 --> 00:27:00,720
things we have a couple of questions in

667
00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:01,520
the

668
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:06,320
think is a really good one and that is

669
00:27:13,909 --> 00:27:08,960
why was there not even a single trace of

670
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:16,070
you know that's probably the

671
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:18,480
the number one uh

672
00:27:22,390 --> 00:27:20,799
question that bothers people and i think

673
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:22,400
reasonably so

674
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:25,760
um that bothers people who

675
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:27,120
you know who are looking at this

676
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:29,440
objectively everything bothers people

677
00:27:34,390 --> 00:27:30,240
who

678
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:34,400
that the police planted evidence ahead

679
00:27:39,669 --> 00:27:37,600
of time and then they just see the rest

680
00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:39,679
of the evidence and the facts and

681
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:42,240
inferences are colored by that thinking

682
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:42,960
but

683
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:45,840
you know people who are just

684
00:27:48,250 --> 00:27:47,600
they don't have an iron in the in the

685
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:48,260
fire

686
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:49,840
[Music]

687
00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:51,440
they are bothered by that and it's

688
00:27:55,269 --> 00:27:53,120
reasonable um

689
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:55,279
there's a few things i would say to that

690
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:56,640
um

691
00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:58,080
for one thing

692
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:00,159
brendan dassey and we'll get to that i'm

693
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:03,360
sure but brendan's statement about where

694
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:04,559
exactly

695
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:06,799
the events occurred and which events

696
00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:08,480
occurred where

697
00:28:12,389 --> 00:28:10,240
meaning

698
00:28:15,669 --> 00:28:12,399
the bedroom avery's bedroom and the

699
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:15,679
trailer versus the garage

700
00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:19,520
what order of events uh the sequence of

701
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:20,559
events

702
00:28:24,470 --> 00:28:22,000
um

703
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:24,480
even who did what and exactly what

704
00:28:29,350 --> 00:28:27,279
happened there there was uh you know

705
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:29,360
some variants of a fair amount of

706
00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:30,399
variants

707
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:32,960
there and i don't think anyone

708
00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:35,760
can say with any level of certitude

709
00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:37,760
exactly where theresa hobach was

710
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:40,159
murdered whether it was in whether she

711
00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:42,960
finally was was murdered the the most

712
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:45,120
violent act whether it was in the

713
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:46,960
bedroom or the garage

714
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:48,159
um

715
00:28:53,029 --> 00:28:51,200
it it there are

716
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:53,039
there are different ways frankly that

717
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:55,039
what he said even in the bedroom could

718
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:57,200
have occurred and for there not to be

719
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:59,760
any physical evidence left behind

720
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:00,960
um

721
00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:03,360
you know people have this sense that

722
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:05,440
blood spatter would be all over the

723
00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:08,159
walls and such if if

724
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:11,840
he he took a knife like he said and cut

725
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:13,840
her throat

726
00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:16,240
i believe there was testimony in child

727
00:29:21,669 --> 00:29:17,840
that it wasn't

728
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:21,679
the kind of cut that was a deep cut

729
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:23,360
you know they're just it's just a fact

730
00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:26,240
there are different types of injuries by

731
00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:29,120
knives was she

732
00:29:34,789 --> 00:29:32,480
strangled ahead of time like a recent

733
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:34,799
jailhouse informant that frankly sounded

734
00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:37,440
pretty credible to me

735
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:40,320
said to a newspaper reporter a couple

736
00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:41,840
months ago

737
00:29:46,149 --> 00:29:43,919
if she was strangled ahead of time by

738
00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:46,159
stephen avery and then

739
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:49,279
as sick as this sounds they had sex with

740
00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:53,440
a corpse for 45 minutes when brendan

741
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:55,600
would have uh cut her throat there

742
00:30:00,149 --> 00:29:57,440
wouldn't be much pressure blood pressure

743
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:00,159
and there wouldn't be much blood uh in

744
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:02,720
in the house there's also evidence

745
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:04,480
brendan's statement at one point was

746
00:30:09,669 --> 00:30:07,440
that the bed bedding was taken out by

747
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:09,679
stephen and thrown into the fire wrapped

748
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:13,360
up blankets and sheets or whatever

749
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,200
they also had uh five days to clean and

750
00:30:23,110 --> 00:30:19,440
it was bleach found

751
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:23,120
in the house it was very clean uh police

752
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:24,000
said

753
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:26,480
uh it's incontrovertible that there was

754
00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:30,080
bleach on brenda dassey's jeans that

755
00:30:35,909 --> 00:30:32,880
both he and i believe stephen

756
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:35,919
admitted that together they

757
00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:38,080
wiped down a

758
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:40,960
a red stain or a dark brown or reddish

759
00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:43,039
stain in the garage

760
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:45,679
that very night

761
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:48,000
the night after the

762
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:51,360
teresa was killed in the in the place

763
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:54,000
and the position the part of the garage

764
00:30:58,710 --> 00:30:56,799
where brendan said stephen shot her i

765
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:58,720
mean just think about that for a second

766
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:00,960
mark you know that's evidence right

767
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:03,360
there of of trying to get rid of

768
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:04,399
evidence

769
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:07,679
uh of a of a murder of a crime there's

770
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:10,080
no question that was blood uh the

771
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:12,799
lubinol testing tested positive in that

772
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:14,799
area just where he said he

773
00:31:20,549 --> 00:31:19,200
cleaned up wiped down uh

774
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:20,559
the

775
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:23,120
stain with bleach

776
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:25,360
it didn't test for blood because it can

777
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:28,000
test for blood or bleach but it matched

778
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:29,760
where he said they

779
00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:30,880
wiped

780
00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:33,120
this stain and and i don't think anybody

781
00:31:37,669 --> 00:31:35,600
doubts that it was blood uh what is

782
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:37,679
steven avery and brendan dassey doing

783
00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:40,159
together that night not just at the fire

784
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:42,799
where the bones were discovered

785
00:31:48,149 --> 00:31:45,679
a raging fire in this big burn pit this

786
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:48,159
isn't just a small you know pit it's a

787
00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:50,880
probably a 10 foot by 10 foot area

788
00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:52,480
and what are they doing together

789
00:31:57,029 --> 00:31:54,480
cleaning the garage that night isn't

790
00:31:58,710 --> 00:31:57,039
that odd with bleach in the exact spot

791
00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:58,720
where the bullets or the area where the

792
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:01,600
bullet was found uh two bullets one with

793
00:32:07,269 --> 00:32:04,080
teresa's dna on it

794
00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:07,279
and in in and with uh with the testing

795
00:32:10,870 --> 00:32:09,120
done the luminal testing showing

796
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:10,880
confirming their statement that they

797
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:12,840
were cleaning with

798
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,559
bleach so

799
00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:17,279
you know the other part of this is

800
00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:20,159
we've all watched too much csi um i

801
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:21,919
haven't i don't watch crime shows to

802
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:24,080
tell you the truth i do i'm too involved

803
00:32:27,509 --> 00:32:25,600
in it during the day but so many people

804
00:32:29,669 --> 00:32:27,519
have and there is this sense that

805
00:32:31,909 --> 00:32:29,679
physical evidence will be found

806
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:31,919
everywhere a crime occurs and it's just

807
00:32:36,710 --> 00:32:33,919
not the case especially if five days

808
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:36,720
have gone by right well i i want to

809
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:39,440
continue a little bit uh more on

810
00:32:43,590 --> 00:32:40,799
on this

811
00:32:45,750 --> 00:32:43,600
particular part of it but i want to

812
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:45,760
give this question that's up in the

813
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,000
message board uh ken

814
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:50,399
peterson told the coroner to her face

815
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:53,039
that she was not welcome on the scene

816
00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:54,880
where does he get the authority to do

817
00:32:59,430 --> 00:32:57,360
this

818
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:59,440
okay i don't know that ken peterson told

819
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:01,440
her that i thought that was someone else

820
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:04,000
but yeah you know if i'm wrong i'm wrong

821
00:33:09,029 --> 00:33:06,399
um there was a uh

822
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:09,039
you know by that point the county

823
00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:11,279
the d.a the

824
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:13,840
one of the offices in manitowoc county

825
00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:15,600
the district attorney's office had

826
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:17,360
already removed itself

827
00:33:21,750 --> 00:33:18,720
uh as

828
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:21,760
because there was a conflict of interest

829
00:33:27,029 --> 00:33:24,240
the sheriff's department decided to stay

830
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:27,039
but thought they were staying

831
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:28,960
in such a manner that they would avoid

832
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:34,230
i don't know who told the coroner that

833
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:35,200
but

834
00:33:39,669 --> 00:33:37,360
i do know that the message to the

835
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:39,679
coroner was that

836
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:42,399
this is a conflict case for manitoba

837
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:44,960
county and the calumet county

838
00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:47,279
authorities including

839
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,200
and the man i believe the milwaukee

840
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:51,600
county medical examiner came up

841
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:53,679
that other folks were going to be doing

842
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:55,600
the case and

843
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:57,519
there had been some

844
00:34:01,350 --> 00:33:59,279
i don't even remember all the details

845
00:34:02,950 --> 00:34:01,360
but there had been some

846
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:02,960
[Music]

847
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:05,440
conflict before this

848
00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:07,840
between with the coroner the former

849
00:34:10,629 --> 00:34:08,960
coroner

850
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:10,639
um and i don't you know i don't want to

851
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,440
get into rumors and details but i i can

852
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:15,839
assure you that there's just one more

853
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:17,679
thing that was

854
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:20,800
thrown out there with little bearing if

855
00:34:26,869 --> 00:34:24,000
any uh to to what happened that day yes

856
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:26,879
um and another comment came up

857
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:29,200
that pit is right next to the garage yet

858
00:34:33,589 --> 00:34:31,359
there's no charring sign of any big fire

859
00:34:34,629 --> 00:34:33,599
close to the garage

860
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:34,639
is there

861
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:38,639
any truth to that are you aware of that

862
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:40,960
well the pitting is behind his trailer

863
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:44,879
and it's you know close um i have a fire

864
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:46,480
pit probably with

865
00:34:51,109 --> 00:34:48,960
against code i'm sure but it's probably

866
00:34:53,109 --> 00:34:51,119
eight feet from my uh

867
00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:53,119
from my garage and the fire pit of

868
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:55,760
stephen area was nowhere near that close

869
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:56,560
so

870
00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:58,480
um

871
00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:00,240
i don't think anybody's questioning that

872
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:03,599
there was a a very uh

873
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:05,760
it a lot of combustion occurred there

874
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:07,599
there look at all of the look at the

875
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:08,640
pictures

876
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:09,599
and

877
00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:10,720
uh

878
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:13,760
it's not that it was just charred things

879
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:16,480
brought that as the defense would say

880
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:19,040
thrown in there it was clear that even

881
00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:20,880
if you assumed things were thrown in

882
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:22,960
there that there had been a major

883
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:26,240
uh fire yes and how come um

884
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:28,079
making a murderer

885
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:31,680
they didn't talk about certain evidence

886
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:32,880
such as

887
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:36,560
um her phone and her pda and her

888
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,119
uh the contents of her purse were all

889
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:41,520
found in a burn barrel i mean that is

890
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:44,240
that true i mean

891
00:35:50,310 --> 00:35:47,119
that is true and it's also true uh not

892
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:50,320
only that it's true that um a family

893
00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:51,440
friend

894
00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:54,720
a fellow by the name of robert fabian

895
00:36:00,950 --> 00:35:58,079
told police that when he came up to the

896
00:36:02,790 --> 00:36:00,960
area where stephen avery was uh his

897
00:36:05,270 --> 00:36:02,800
trailer in the garage

898
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:05,280
that stephen was

899
00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:07,839
was throwing a plastic bag with

900
00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:11,040
something in the in the fire barrel

901
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:13,920
and smelled i believe he smelled plastic

902
00:36:18,470 --> 00:36:16,400
so not only were those belongings of

903
00:36:19,589 --> 00:36:18,480
theresa found in that barrel but stephen

904
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:19,599
was seen

905
00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:23,200
um after the murder but before the fire

906
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:27,040
uh throwing items into the uh the barrel

907
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:29,680
yeah making murder left that out and

908
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:31,839
an incredible amount of other

909
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:35,200
information out including the dna

910
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:38,000
uh probably skin cell dna under the hood

911
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:41,680
latch of theresa hawbach's vehicle

912
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:43,920
they left out

913
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:46,240
the inconsistent statements of stephen

914
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:49,599
avery he actually told his brother

915
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:50,640
that

916
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:51,440
the

917
00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:55,520
photographer never showed up that day um

918
00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:58,720
and he then uh changed that story after

919
00:37:03,430 --> 00:37:00,560
the police knew that she did show up

920
00:37:06,069 --> 00:37:03,440
there that day he he told him well oh

921
00:37:08,230 --> 00:37:06,079
yeah she showed up that's right um but

922
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:08,240
she i never had contact with her i just

923
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:10,079
saw her out the window

924
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:12,960
and after a while that changed

925
00:37:17,349 --> 00:37:15,280
to stephen avery saying well i guess i

926
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:17,359
did talk to her i had to

927
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:19,359
pay her whatever he did and then i saw

928
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:22,000
her leave so three very separate stories

929
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:24,400
that was never brought into uh making a

930
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:27,359
murderer um the the uh

931
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:30,000
the uh hood latch dna was never brought

932
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:32,079
so much was manipulated

933
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:34,240
and you know it gets to the point martin

934
00:37:38,950 --> 00:37:36,640
where there actually were

935
00:37:40,790 --> 00:37:38,960
portions of testimony of witnesses

936
00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:40,800
edited out

937
00:37:47,109 --> 00:37:43,839
and spliced into answers of those

938
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:47,119
witnesses to different questions

939
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:49,280
specifically with regard to andy coburn

940
00:37:54,150 --> 00:37:51,760
they tried to officer coburn they tried

941
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:54,160
to suggest that he saw the vehicle two

942
00:37:57,670 --> 00:37:55,920
days

943
00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:57,680
before

944
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:01,359
it was located at the avery salvador

945
00:38:05,430 --> 00:38:03,599
and you know must have just seen it out

946
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:05,440
there and therefore police must have

947
00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:07,920
planted the car within the intervening

948
00:38:16,069 --> 00:38:11,599
two days they suggested that uh

949
00:38:17,990 --> 00:38:16,079
by manipulating a dispatch call

950
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:18,000
between colburn and the dispatcher a

951
00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:19,920
harmless call really

952
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,440
um where he was confirming a plate

953
00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:25,599
number that it belonged to teresa

954
00:38:28,950 --> 00:38:27,520
halbach and what the plate number was

955
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:28,960
and what kind of

956
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:31,200
vehicle and what color it was and by

957
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:33,520
manipulating and editing out

958
00:38:37,910 --> 00:38:36,079
his testimony from a different question

959
00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:37,920
to that question they made it look as

960
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:38,800
though

961
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:40,240
uh

962
00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:43,280
he was up to no good and that he had

963
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:46,240
he had seen the car that very day

964
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:48,000
there were other instances similar to

965
00:38:51,430 --> 00:38:50,320
that as well

966
00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:51,440
it's a

967
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:52,480
you know

968
00:38:57,100 --> 00:38:54,960
it really was i guess this is becoming

969
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:57,110
an overused phrase but

970
00:39:00,310 --> 00:38:58,560
[Music]

971
00:39:02,550 --> 00:39:00,320
not only fake news but i think

972
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:02,560
alternative facts kellyanne conway's

973
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:04,960
alternative facts actually fit

974
00:39:11,910 --> 00:39:08,640
fit better um or or good old propaganda

975
00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:11,920
um and really good propaganda because

976
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,280
you know i don't know

977
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:15,440
i don't know if you watched it um

978
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:19,280
but it was an engrossing show and music

979
00:39:23,589 --> 00:39:21,119
and emotion

980
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:23,599
and uh suspense

981
00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:25,920
those kinds of things really draw people

982
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:26,800
in

983
00:39:31,829 --> 00:39:29,520
and you can do a lot

984
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:31,839
with fact patterns and inferences by

985
00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:34,960
manipulating them when you have emotion

986
00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:38,160
and you have so much distrust of police

987
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:40,400
and prosecutors some of it

988
00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:42,480
with good reason you know in the culture

989
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:43,440
today

990
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:46,320
i mean there have been 350 plus wrongful

991
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:49,280
convictions and about half of them

992
00:39:53,349 --> 00:39:51,040
um

993
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:53,359
one of the causes in about half of them

994
00:39:57,349 --> 00:39:55,680
or a factor is police or prosecutor

995
00:39:59,270 --> 00:39:57,359
misconduct so

996
00:40:01,990 --> 00:39:59,280
you know i'm not approaching this saying

997
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:02,000
that police and prosecutors are are

998
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:07,990
innocent of wrongdoing it's an exception

999
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:09,440
not a rule

1000
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:11,440
but there's no question

1001
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:13,760
that uh police and prosecutors are

1002
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:16,880
capable of some really rotten stuff um

1003
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:19,839
witnessed the first case in the in the

1004
00:40:25,910 --> 00:40:23,280
avery's 1985 wrongful conviction

1005
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:25,920
but you know they chose the wrong case

1006
00:40:30,790 --> 00:40:28,560
uh made a great story for them

1007
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:30,800
uh to make it uh

1008
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:33,599
seem as though the police uh

1009
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:35,280
that lightning struck twice and the

1010
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:37,200
police wrongly convicted him a second

1011
00:40:40,870 --> 00:40:39,599
time planted evidence that's that's

1012
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:40,880
pretty uh

1013
00:40:46,790 --> 00:40:44,240
you know that's pretty sexy story uh for

1014
00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:46,800
for the making a murder folks to uh to

1015
00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:48,560
throw out there and that's what they did

1016
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:50,400
by a lot of money i'll tell you when i

1017
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:52,480
watched you know i watched the series

1018
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:53,760
all the way through

1019
00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:54,640
um

1020
00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:56,640
i had a lot of discussions with other

1021
00:41:00,950 --> 00:40:58,240
people that were you know friends that

1022
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:00,960
were watching it and um you know a lot

1023
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:02,480
of us were

1024
00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:05,200
in the camp that you know he was framed

1025
00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:06,800
you know i mean i i really thought that

1026
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:08,720
especially with the key magically

1027
00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:11,200
showing up um and i understand that you

1028
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:13,040
know part of the the bookcase like

1029
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:14,640
separated in the back and that's

1030
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:16,720
possibly where it was hanging out i

1031
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:18,960
don't really know but you know my first

1032
00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:21,599
thought was well they probably planted

1033
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:23,920
the key they probably knew they had them

1034
00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:25,440
and they just wanted stronger evidence

1035
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:27,920
that was actually my thoughts um when i

1036
00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:30,480
first uh when i first saw that and you

1037
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:31,680
know uh

1038
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:33,599
and like they just wanted to build a

1039
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:35,440
stronger case that they knew they had

1040
00:41:38,710 --> 00:41:37,280
him anyway that type of thing that was

1041
00:41:39,510 --> 00:41:38,720
my thoughts but

1042
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:39,520
um

1043
00:41:42,870 --> 00:41:40,400
but

1044
00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:42,880
uh you know as i really started to look

1045
00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:45,920
into this more um it just

1046
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:48,160
you know it's hard to have an opinion

1047
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:49,040
and

1048
00:41:54,069 --> 00:41:52,160
um when half of the world has the other

1049
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:54,079
opinion you know

1050
00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:55,920
uh i'm sure you're you're dealing with

1051
00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:57,680
that now have you

1052
00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:59,040
had any

1053
00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:01,200
uh you know just go off topic a little

1054
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:02,640
bit here have you had any personal

1055
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:06,950
early on uh

1056
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:09,520
all the prosecutors in our office had

1057
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:11,520
you know a threat that someone was

1058
00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:13,920
showing up in manitowoc and was gonna

1059
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:15,280
gonna

1060
00:42:18,790 --> 00:42:17,280
take out all the prosecutors or some

1061
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:18,800
nonsense and

1062
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:21,280
we never you know

1063
00:42:33,589 --> 00:42:23,359
really

1064
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:33,599
as very very uh realistic that there was

1065
00:42:38,390 --> 00:42:36,240
a bomb threat called into the sheriff's

1066
00:42:39,990 --> 00:42:38,400
department which is right next to the

1067
00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:40,000
courthouse and it was a fairly

1068
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:42,640
sophisticated um

1069
00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:44,400
type of threat the the

1070
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:47,920
the uh route uh the calling route or

1071
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:51,359
whatever the terminology is uh was such

1072
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:53,440
that it was really hard to trace who did

1073
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:54,160
it

1074
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:56,560
um there was and

1075
00:43:01,589 --> 00:43:00,400
uh yeah an investigation uh of that and

1076
00:43:03,910 --> 00:43:01,599
um

1077
00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:03,920
and they were you know most of what i've

1078
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:06,720
dealt with though is just a lot of venom

1079
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:08,160
um

1080
00:43:12,470 --> 00:43:10,400
and i'm i

1081
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:12,480
you know it to me it's more of an

1082
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:14,960
interest in how people's

1083
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:18,800
minds work how there's the psychology of

1084
00:43:23,829 --> 00:43:19,599
uh

1085
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:23,839
what happens when we we

1086
00:43:27,430 --> 00:43:26,160
make something so close to our belief

1087
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:27,440
kind of a

1088
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:29,920
i mean make something make a belief of

1089
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:33,520
ours a part of our our identity

1090
00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:34,480
i think

1091
00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:37,520
any ideology taken to an extreme

1092
00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:39,119
where it becomes

1093
00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:41,200
kind of part of our being

1094
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:43,680
it keeps us i think and we're all

1095
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:45,359
susceptible to it

1096
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:47,440
from seeing things rationally and

1097
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:50,560
objectively and it also really makes us

1098
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:53,440
nasty and intolerant

1099
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:56,560
of of opposite views you know because

1100
00:44:00,950 --> 00:43:58,880
it's part of our identity we we attach

1101
00:44:02,950 --> 00:44:00,960
ourselves to it so much i think

1102
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:02,960
in a weird way that's happened in this

1103
00:44:08,309 --> 00:44:06,319
case um some people on both sides but i

1104
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:08,319
think mostly on the side where the

1105
00:44:11,829 --> 00:44:10,640
emotion of making a murder hit

1106
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:11,839
um

1107
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:14,160
that that these that stephen avery was

1108
00:44:18,069 --> 00:44:16,640
only convicted again and if you really

1109
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:18,079
believe that

1110
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:20,640
and if you really think that the police

1111
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:22,400
set this guy up again

1112
00:44:26,950 --> 00:44:25,359
um you know the anger is justified but

1113
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:26,960
it it

1114
00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:29,280
it's a good example of how we can fool

1115
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:31,839
ourselves in my opinion um

1116
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:33,839
people will say i'm really arrogant for

1117
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:35,200
making that

1118
00:44:39,270 --> 00:44:36,480
comment but

1119
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:39,280
you know i think psychology uh it's the

1120
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:43,440
way it's done uh i mean it it's it's uh

1121
00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:47,760
it it's clearly a part of our psychology

1122
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:49,839
look at the political discussions people

1123
00:44:53,109 --> 00:44:52,079
have when their ideology kind of blinds

1124
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:53,119
them

1125
00:44:57,670 --> 00:44:55,119
uh to to anything and i think there's

1126
00:45:00,230 --> 00:44:57,680
some commonalities there um now

1127
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:00,240
lancaster says in the chat room page

1128
00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:04,160
three of the mtso report shows the rav

1129
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:06,400
four in their possession on november

1130
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:07,920
third

1131
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:09,920
uh are you familiar with that is this

1132
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:12,720
just a typo or is this

1133
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:15,040
yeah i'm familiar with it that's one of

1134
00:45:19,190 --> 00:45:17,520
thousands of uh

1135
00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:19,200
you know portions of different

1136
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:21,280
conspiracy theories

1137
00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:23,680
uh there's thousands of pages in the

1138
00:45:28,150 --> 00:45:26,960
police reports and um there's entries

1139
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:28,160
that may

1140
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:30,560
uh relate to when

1141
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:33,200
the person was first being missing

1142
00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:36,000
uh this is these is a i believe it's a

1143
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:38,400
data sheet uh the top of the police

1144
00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:40,800
report the body of the police report

1145
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:43,280
itself is very clear on when

1146
00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:45,280
uh things occurred

1147
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:47,760
i've seen data sheets on police reports

1148
00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:48,640
have

1149
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:52,800
uh dates that are incorrect

1150
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:55,200
so i don't i don't even you know i think

1151
00:45:59,829 --> 00:45:57,440
the problem is if you start picking

1152
00:46:01,109 --> 00:45:59,839
apart these little things you can take

1153
00:46:01,990 --> 00:46:01,119
anything

1154
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:02,000
and

1155
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:10,800
pages of police reports

1156
00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:13,280
in a six-week long trial

1157
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:17,280
and a search of this property and you

1158
00:46:21,349 --> 00:46:18,720
can

1159
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:21,359
find something wrong or find something

1160
00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:25,200
suspicious and you can probably do that

1161
00:46:30,470 --> 00:46:28,400
you know find 50 suspicious things but

1162
00:46:32,069 --> 00:46:30,480
to believe the conspiracy

1163
00:46:36,069 --> 00:46:32,079
you have to ignore

1164
00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:36,079
um all the the the more realistic the

1165
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:39,200
the obvious things and uh

1166
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:41,599
you know i don't at some point um it's

1167
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:43,839
not even worth um

1168
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:46,079
addressing a lot of the the theories

1169
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:47,839
because they're just so

1170
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:50,480
they're so off the mark they're so

1171
00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:51,520
minor

1172
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:56,240
and uh they they're just senseless um

1173
00:47:01,349 --> 00:46:57,760
and that's one of them i mean it's a

1174
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:01,359
date on a data sheet uh

1175
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:02,560
so

1176
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:04,560
you know we're we're to believe that all

1177
00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:06,960
of this was a setup because of

1178
00:47:12,630 --> 00:47:11,599
uh one date uh one digit on uh one

1179
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:12,640
column

1180
00:47:16,390 --> 00:47:14,960
of the front of an incident report it

1181
00:47:19,670 --> 00:47:16,400
just doesn't make it okay i'd like to

1182
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:19,680
talk about dassey a little bit now

1183
00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:21,200
and

1184
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:26,480
fact that you know he was just a kid um

1185
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:28,400
you know he had a little bit of a

1186
00:47:34,790 --> 00:47:32,960
uh had a little bit of a low i lower iq

1187
00:47:38,069 --> 00:47:34,800
um and someone like that can be

1188
00:47:39,990 --> 00:47:38,079
manipulated and clearly in the um the

1189
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,000
way he was interrogated

1190
00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:42,640
um you can see manipulation going on

1191
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:45,040
there but he also said

1192
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:48,160
some things that uh for instance when he

1193
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:49,680
brought the envelope over to his uncle

1194
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:51,359
knocked on the door his uncle came and

1195
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:52,960
was all sweaty and everything like that

1196
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:55,119
that you know right off the bat that

1197
00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:56,000
that

1198
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:58,400
sounds of some type of truth

1199
00:48:01,990 --> 00:48:00,160
um you know he said of a couple of other

1200
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:02,000
things that were not you know that he

1201
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:03,520
gave up freely

1202
00:48:07,510 --> 00:48:04,400
um

1203
00:48:09,750 --> 00:48:07,520
but uh i'm sure that the people that

1204
00:48:11,670 --> 00:48:09,760
interrogated him you know wish they had

1205
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:11,680
more patience and had done things

1206
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:12,800
differently

1207
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:14,400
um do you think

1208
00:48:16,069 --> 00:48:15,200
that

1209
00:48:26,870 --> 00:48:16,079
he

1210
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:26,880
is not going to be let out uh

1211
00:48:33,589 --> 00:48:29,680
at this point but do you think um

1212
00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:33,599
how do you feel about all that situation

1213
00:48:38,790 --> 00:48:35,839
well a couple of things um

1214
00:48:41,430 --> 00:48:38,800
there's a lot he said that rings true um

1215
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:41,440
aladdi said does not sound like it makes

1216
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:43,680
sense um so you have to sort of parse it

1217
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:44,400
out

1218
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:47,680
um we know that he denied several things

1219
00:48:53,109 --> 00:48:50,240
um even early on when he spoke with

1220
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:53,119
police up in critics where

1221
00:48:56,790 --> 00:48:55,040
he and avery were

1222
00:48:58,150 --> 00:48:56,800
after the car was founder on that

1223
00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:58,160
weekend

1224
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:00,880
they both denied being uh together at a

1225
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:04,720
at a fire they both denied being uh

1226
00:49:09,349 --> 00:49:07,200
at any uh fire in the fire pit that

1227
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:09,359
night and that makes it wonder right off

1228
00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:11,280
the bat or at least it should why you

1229
00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:13,040
know because it became obvious through

1230
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:14,800
other witnesses

1231
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:16,559
and even through brendan's later

1232
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:19,040
statement himself uh that they were at a

1233
00:49:22,710 --> 00:49:20,319
fire so

1234
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:22,720
you know that people should pause right

1235
00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:24,559
there and think what does that mean that

1236
00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:26,559
they lied about that

1237
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:30,960
um and and several other uh things that

1238
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:33,280
he was not being truthful with i think

1239
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:35,839
that means more than a digit a misplaced

1240
00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:36,720
digit

1241
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:38,880
or a different reference

1242
00:49:41,910 --> 00:49:40,559
in a data sheet

1243
00:49:43,990 --> 00:49:41,920
but anyhow

1244
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,000
he also told his mother that some of

1245
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:46,640
what he told the police was true and you

1246
00:49:51,510 --> 00:49:48,640
have to kind of look through

1247
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:51,520
and watch all these videotapes but

1248
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:54,640
talk about ringing true you know it's

1249
00:50:02,069 --> 00:49:58,400
it's him and his mother speaking and the

1250
00:50:05,270 --> 00:50:02,079
tone of his voice as she says you know

1251
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:05,280
uh barbianda brendan's mother

1252
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:07,119
you know outraged that he could have

1253
00:50:11,430 --> 00:50:08,880
been involved in this and that stephen

1254
00:50:13,829 --> 00:50:11,440
did this brendan you know

1255
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:13,839
is any of this is this true did you do

1256
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,000
this you know what you told the police

1257
00:50:20,870 --> 00:50:18,160
and he says well some of it

1258
00:50:22,309 --> 00:50:20,880
you know so there there's

1259
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:22,319
there's pretty clear

1260
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:23,920
and in addition to all the other

1261
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:25,760
evidence including the the helping

1262
00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:28,800
stephen uh clean the garage and the

1263
00:50:32,470 --> 00:50:30,559
bleach stains that

1264
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:32,480
were on his pants

1265
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:33,920
and the fact that they were together in

1266
00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:36,720
the fires it's pretty clear in my mind

1267
00:50:41,109 --> 00:50:39,280
that brendan was in some way involved we

1268
00:50:43,109 --> 00:50:41,119
don't know exactly

1269
00:50:44,309 --> 00:50:43,119
exactly what he did and how he did i

1270
00:50:45,190 --> 00:50:44,319
have my

1271
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:45,200
um

1272
00:50:49,670 --> 00:50:47,200
you know uh

1273
00:50:51,829 --> 00:50:49,680
belief that he was but that's really

1274
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:51,839
kind of a separate question then where

1275
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:53,680
it's at legally it's not whether his

1276
00:50:57,910 --> 00:50:55,440
confession was

1277
00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:57,920
false it's whether the

1278
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:00,079
interrogation was

1279
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,800
coercive was

1280
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:04,640
was it an involuntary statement could

1281
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:06,480
the police have done it

1282
00:51:12,950 --> 00:51:10,480
different you know um the the uh

1283
00:51:15,349 --> 00:51:12,960
the law on whether a confession is

1284
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:15,359
voluntary or not isn't the black and

1285
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:17,920
white kind of thing so the anger that's

1286
00:51:21,750 --> 00:51:19,280
been expressed

1287
00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:21,760
specifically at the two officers who did

1288
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:23,440
the interrogation

1289
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:24,960
and you have people saying they're the

1290
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:26,559
ones who are going to be next on a

1291
00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:28,880
wrongful conviction when lawsuit when

1292
00:51:32,870 --> 00:51:30,720
brendan dassey gets up

1293
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:32,880
it's nonsense um

1294
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:35,440
two courts um

1295
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:37,839
a state court and the wisconsin court of

1296
00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:40,160
appeals said as the law stood at that

1297
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:42,559
time and as it stands now

1298
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:43,520
um

1299
00:51:48,710 --> 00:51:46,480
that what they did uh

1300
00:51:50,549 --> 00:51:48,720
maybe not you know a pretty thing to

1301
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:50,559
watch or maybe not a

1302
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:52,960
the way we'd like to have things done it

1303
00:51:57,510 --> 00:51:53,920
wasn't

1304
00:51:59,990 --> 00:51:57,520
against the law it was considered uh to

1305
00:52:06,549 --> 00:52:04,069
fair tactics in in questioning now

1306
00:52:08,390 --> 00:52:06,559
should they have done it different um i

1307
00:52:11,109 --> 00:52:08,400
don't know that they would have

1308
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:11,119
gotten much further with brendan dassey

1309
00:52:17,109 --> 00:52:13,200
they look at it as

1310
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:19,109
and that is one way to look at all those

1311
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:21,599
videotapes if you watch them is a person

1312
00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:24,880
who's who's first of all lying up north

1313
00:52:29,829 --> 00:52:27,440
uh clear-cut saying what you know

1314
00:52:33,270 --> 00:52:29,839
something that isn't true so then

1315
00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:33,280
um you gradually as the police believe

1316
00:52:38,549 --> 00:52:35,760
you know bring out us a reluctant

1317
00:52:40,710 --> 00:52:38,559
witness to admit what occurred that's

1318
00:52:42,870 --> 00:52:40,720
that's one way to look at that videotape

1319
00:52:44,390 --> 00:52:42,880
those videotape confessions and i think

1320
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:44,400
there's a lot to it

1321
00:52:48,549 --> 00:52:46,160
the other way to look at it is the

1322
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:48,559
police are just manipulating them so

1323
00:52:53,510 --> 00:52:51,839
badly and inferring promises

1324
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:53,520
of leniency

1325
00:52:58,390 --> 00:52:56,000
um and

1326
00:53:00,630 --> 00:52:58,400
making things up and acting like their

1327
00:53:03,109 --> 00:53:00,640
pal his pal

1328
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:03,119
and taking advantage of him to the point

1329
00:53:07,990 --> 00:53:05,200
where

1330
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:08,000
you can't even rely on what he said

1331
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:10,640
and it's not the kind of questioning we

1332
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:12,960
should allow because

1333
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:15,119
of the constitution we you know we have

1334
00:53:21,589 --> 00:53:15,920
a

1335
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:21,599
of

1336
00:53:26,950 --> 00:53:24,160
people confessions and now uh it's to

1337
00:53:28,630 --> 00:53:26,960
coerce psychologically confessions out

1338
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:28,640
of people and

1339
00:53:33,910 --> 00:53:32,000
with brendan dassey's makeup i mean

1340
00:53:38,309 --> 00:53:33,920
i understand

1341
00:53:40,549 --> 00:53:38,319
completely and can agree with much of it

1342
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:40,559
there's a great deal of sympathy for him

1343
00:53:44,549 --> 00:53:43,119
when i give presentations i gave one to

1344
00:53:46,870 --> 00:53:44,559
the wisconsin court reporters

1345
00:53:49,109 --> 00:53:46,880
association a couple weeks ago

1346
00:53:50,390 --> 00:53:49,119
and the sympathy for brendan dassey is

1347
00:53:53,990 --> 00:53:50,400
amazing

1348
00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:54,000
and including not just the

1349
00:53:57,270 --> 00:53:56,480
the sympathy for how it

1350
00:54:00,790 --> 00:53:57,280
he

1351
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:00,800
confessing and

1352
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:02,720
uh there was one woman in the audience

1353
00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:05,359
who actually um went to grade school

1354
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:08,160
with him and uh when he was in fifth

1355
00:54:11,670 --> 00:54:10,559
grade i believe she

1356
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:11,680
was

1357
00:54:15,589 --> 00:54:13,680
sort of his tutor helped him learn how

1358
00:54:16,790 --> 00:54:15,599
to read and she spoke about him as

1359
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:16,800
someone who

1360
00:54:21,349 --> 00:54:18,880
i think she called him a sweet kid a kid

1361
00:54:24,790 --> 00:54:21,359
that everybody picked on and not a bad

1362
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:24,800
kid this is a kid without a prior record

1363
00:54:29,870 --> 00:54:27,119
but you know where the law should

1364
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:29,880
develop if it should develop on

1365
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:32,079
voluntariness um

1366
00:54:36,150 --> 00:54:33,599
this case we'll see what the seventh

1367
00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:36,160
circuit court of appeals does if they

1368
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:38,160
just sort of follow the letter of the

1369
00:54:43,589 --> 00:54:40,720
law as it stands

1370
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:43,599
meaning there was no explicit promise of

1371
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:45,760
leniency to him therefore it was

1372
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:47,040
voluntary

1373
00:54:53,349 --> 00:54:49,200
therefore it's not suppressed therefore

1374
00:54:55,910 --> 00:54:53,359
he remains in prison they could do that

1375
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:55,920
the strict constructionist people the

1376
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:58,160
the conservative jurists the people who

1377
00:55:01,430 --> 00:55:00,000
don't think judges

1378
00:55:03,589 --> 00:55:01,440
should be

1379
00:55:05,349 --> 00:55:03,599
they would consider it judicial activism

1380
00:55:08,069 --> 00:55:05,359
if if

1381
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:08,079
if the courts rule otherwise

1382
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:10,640
those folks would be very happy if uh

1383
00:55:15,750 --> 00:55:13,520
that the court of appeals just kind of

1384
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:15,760
looks at it in a very strict sense

1385
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:18,559
another way to do it is to you know the

1386
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,559
law does develop somewhat and is it

1387
00:55:26,069 --> 00:55:22,960
always just the legislature

1388
00:55:28,470 --> 00:55:26,079
if a court looks at it and and really

1389
00:55:30,630 --> 00:55:28,480
uh thinks it through and says that

1390
00:55:34,790 --> 00:55:30,640
ultimately even though the words the

1391
00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:34,800
magic words uh of an explicit promise

1392
00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:36,720
uh those words weren't uttered to

1393
00:55:42,549 --> 00:55:39,760
brendan dassey but it's the

1394
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:42,559
functional equivalent of it uh

1395
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:44,640
and in fact in some ways i think it's

1396
00:55:50,789 --> 00:55:48,319
worse than one quick explicit promise

1397
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:50,799
when when you watch those tapes and

1398
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:52,960
we're on your side brendan and you know

1399
00:55:57,589 --> 00:55:55,839
we put your put my hand on your on your

1400
00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:57,599
knee and say i've got a son just like

1401
00:56:01,190 --> 00:55:58,880
yours and i don't think you have

1402
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:01,200
anything to worry about and

1403
00:56:06,309 --> 00:56:04,880
uh as long as you tell the truth i

1404
00:56:09,750 --> 00:56:06,319
you know i think you could tell where

1405
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:09,760
i'm coming from a little bit in terms of

1406
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:11,280
uh

1407
00:56:15,990 --> 00:56:14,240
confession law but that's just my thing

1408
00:56:17,510 --> 00:56:16,000
my opinion it's certainly not the

1409
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:17,520
opinion of the attorney general who's

1410
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:19,520
got the case

1411
00:56:23,589 --> 00:56:21,839
and uh probably not the opinion of most

1412
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:23,599
prosecutors but

1413
00:56:27,829 --> 00:56:25,119
whether regardless of the brennan and

1414
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:27,839
dassey case it's very bothersome to me

1415
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:30,880
um when police

1416
00:56:37,270 --> 00:56:34,000
over manipulate uh a defendant on a

1417
00:56:39,349 --> 00:56:37,280
confession now if it's a seasoned

1418
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:39,359
uh criminal who's been in front of

1419
00:56:43,990 --> 00:56:41,839
police you know a dozen times and who

1420
00:56:45,589 --> 00:56:44,000
knows how to talk their way around

1421
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:45,599
police

1422
00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:46,400
and

1423
00:56:50,870 --> 00:56:48,400
that's one thing but this is this is a

1424
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:50,880
kid with no prior record that

1425
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:52,720
basically uh

1426
00:56:57,510 --> 00:56:55,040
spent most of the time sort of looking

1427
00:56:59,750 --> 00:56:57,520
down and giving short answers and

1428
00:57:02,069 --> 00:56:59,760
thought he could go home

1429
00:57:04,069 --> 00:57:02,079
or go back to school after he confessed

1430
00:57:06,390 --> 00:57:04,079
to a murderer

1431
00:57:09,270 --> 00:57:06,400
so we shall see what the court does

1432
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:09,280
that's what really counts yes um yes now

1433
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:11,040
how does his

1434
00:57:18,230 --> 00:57:14,720
how did his court case line up with uh

1435
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:18,240
with stephen avery's court case

1436
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:21,119
his case was tried after avery's case

1437
00:57:26,570 --> 00:57:22,480
and of course it was the same

1438
00:57:27,910 --> 00:57:26,580
prosecutors and there's been a lot of um

1439
00:57:30,630 --> 00:57:27,920
[Music]

1440
00:57:33,190 --> 00:57:30,640
dispute and a lot of consternation over

1441
00:57:36,309 --> 00:57:33,200
the fact that the state's theory

1442
00:57:38,069 --> 00:57:36,319
in the two cases uh differed uh or at

1443
00:57:41,190 --> 00:57:38,079
least seemed to differ

1444
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:41,200
that in the one case um in in the avery

1445
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:43,440
trial there was no indication that there

1446
00:57:47,109 --> 00:57:45,520
was a co-defendant um

1447
00:57:49,510 --> 00:57:47,119
or that or

1448
00:57:51,190 --> 00:57:49,520
where the uh murder occurred or the or

1449
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:51,200
the brennan dassey

1450
00:57:54,470 --> 00:57:53,040
uh statement as to how the murder

1451
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:54,480
occurred none of that came into the

1452
00:57:57,910 --> 00:57:55,839
avery case

1453
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:57,920
uh but in the dassey case it was

1454
00:58:02,950 --> 00:58:00,319
primarily brendan's uh confession

1455
00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:02,960
britney dassey's confession as to how he

1456
00:58:05,829 --> 00:58:04,720
and stephen avery raped and killed

1457
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:05,839
theresa

1458
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:10,160
have two very different

1459
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:12,240
versions presented by the state by the

1460
00:58:15,990 --> 00:58:13,520
prosecution

1461
00:58:19,109 --> 00:58:16,000
and that upsets people um what they're

1462
00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:19,119
what they're missing i think is that um

1463
00:58:23,750 --> 00:58:22,240
in a trial the prosecution and the

1464
00:58:27,030 --> 00:58:23,760
defense

1465
00:58:31,270 --> 00:58:27,040
is limited to the evidence to what the

1466
00:58:34,150 --> 00:58:31,280
evidence was and the admissible evidence

1467
00:58:35,829 --> 00:58:34,160
so in stephen avery's case

1468
00:58:38,069 --> 00:58:35,839
brendan dassey's confession was not

1469
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:38,079
admissible it would have been hearsay

1470
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:40,720
unless he took the stand

1471
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:41,760
but

1472
00:58:46,069 --> 00:58:44,160
he would not agree to a deal the parties

1473
00:58:48,630 --> 00:58:46,079
did not cut a deal so the state could

1474
00:58:50,549 --> 00:58:48,640
not use him to testify against avery so

1475
00:58:51,510 --> 00:58:50,559
kratz didn't have

1476
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:51,520
um

1477
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:53,920
or the other two prosecutors did not

1478
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:56,400
have uh brennan's confession there was

1479
00:59:00,470 --> 00:58:58,559
there could be no evidence

1480
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:00,480
admitted at that trial with regard to

1481
00:59:05,990 --> 00:59:03,119
the to where the crime occurred or that

1482
00:59:08,069 --> 00:59:06,000
it even involves somebody else

1483
00:59:10,390 --> 00:59:08,079
i think i would have had i've been

1484
00:59:13,109 --> 00:59:10,400
trying the case sort of suggested to the

1485
00:59:14,950 --> 00:59:13,119
jury i don't believe kratz did this that

1486
00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:14,960
you know we're not saying

1487
00:59:19,270 --> 00:59:17,440
um exactly how the murder occurred we're

1488
00:59:20,789 --> 00:59:19,280
not even saying that steven avery was

1489
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:20,799
the only one

1490
00:59:25,270 --> 00:59:23,040
who committed this murder but what

1491
00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:25,280
you're here to listen to ladies and

1492
00:59:29,190 --> 00:59:27,119
gentlemen is the evidence as to whether

1493
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:29,200
stephen avery whether he did it alone or

1494
00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:30,640
did it with others

1495
00:59:36,069 --> 00:59:33,440
uh committed the crime um he may have

1496
00:59:37,349 --> 00:59:36,079
said that i don't know but the point is

1497
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:37,359
um

1498
00:59:41,109 --> 00:59:40,000
it's it's an odd thing you know it it

1499
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:41,119
it's

1500
00:59:47,910 --> 00:59:45,520
that that evidence is sometimes not

1501
00:59:49,910 --> 00:59:47,920
admissible even though it seems pretty

1502
00:59:51,349 --> 00:59:49,920
clear and you can end up if you have

1503
00:59:53,589 --> 00:59:51,359
co-defendants

1504
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:53,599
with different versions presented to the

1505
01:00:00,710 --> 00:59:58,309
it would bother me as a prosecutor to

1506
01:00:02,230 --> 01:00:00,720
some extent if i didn't try to at least

1507
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:02,240
hint around

1508
01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:03,599
that

1509
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:05,680
there's there's some information other

1510
01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:07,599
information in every case that you're

1511
01:00:15,190 --> 01:00:13,030
you know you need to look at only what

1512
01:00:16,390 --> 01:00:15,200
we have in front of you but

1513
01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:16,400
you you

1514
01:00:20,630 --> 01:00:19,280
necessarily don't know the entire story

1515
01:00:23,589 --> 01:00:20,640
and that's okay

1516
01:00:26,309 --> 01:00:23,599
we don't have to tell them and we can't

1517
01:00:27,910 --> 01:00:26,319
tell them uh the entire

1518
01:00:29,990 --> 01:00:27,920
story for the protection of the

1519
01:00:32,470 --> 01:00:30,000
defendant frankly as to to what's

1520
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:32,480
admissible and what's not so again

1521
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:33,839
that's a

1522
01:00:42,470 --> 01:00:39,359
it has been taken way out of proportion

1523
01:00:45,030 --> 01:00:42,480
and somehow looked at by pro avery and

1524
01:00:46,870 --> 01:00:45,040
pro dassey folks as a sign that

1525
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:46,880
you know the prosecution doesn't believe

1526
01:00:49,670 --> 01:00:48,799
its own theory or

1527
01:00:51,750 --> 01:00:49,680
was

1528
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:51,760
that they're just making it all up not

1529
01:00:56,069 --> 01:00:54,000
the case there's a good legal reason for

1530
01:00:59,750 --> 01:00:56,079
for what you know i do feel i do feel

1531
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:59,760
bad for brendan um only because i think

1532
01:01:02,549 --> 01:01:01,200
that

1533
01:01:05,829 --> 01:01:02,559
you know i think it was totally

1534
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:05,839
manipulated by his uncle basically is

1535
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:07,760
how i'm thinking about the whole

1536
01:01:12,630 --> 01:01:10,880
situation um and i do feel bad for the

1537
01:01:14,870 --> 01:01:12,640
way he was interrogated

1538
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:14,880
but if he actually did have a hand in

1539
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:18,240
this then i i i don't feel so

1540
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:20,640
uh i don't feel that

1541
01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:22,880
um he should get out on a constitutional

1542
01:01:27,190 --> 01:01:25,040
right but

1543
01:01:30,150 --> 01:01:27,200
what are your thoughts on that i mean

1544
01:01:32,069 --> 01:01:30,160
he could be released right well he has

1545
01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:32,079
yeah he could be and he absolutely

1546
01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:35,040
should get out on a constitutional rate

1547
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:35,920
if

1548
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:39,760
his constitutional right was violated

1549
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:41,520
under the law so that it should be

1550
01:01:47,430 --> 01:01:44,640
suppressed um you have to and it's

1551
01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:47,440
difficult you know but people in the law

1552
01:01:52,230 --> 01:01:50,000
and i think the

1553
01:01:54,789 --> 01:01:52,240
people have to be able to have a couple

1554
01:01:57,109 --> 01:01:54,799
things going on um in their minds at the

1555
01:02:00,390 --> 01:01:57,119
same time sometimes

1556
01:02:02,470 --> 01:02:00,400
um in terms of this um

1557
01:02:04,230 --> 01:02:02,480
you know i i think brenda dassey did

1558
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:04,240
have some involvement and it may be

1559
01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:06,720
close to what his involvement was and if

1560
01:02:12,069 --> 01:02:09,440
that what he said his involvement was uh

1561
01:02:14,710 --> 01:02:12,079
in the one confession that they used

1562
01:02:15,510 --> 01:02:14,720
against him and if that's the case

1563
01:02:17,670 --> 01:02:15,520
um

1564
01:02:20,309 --> 01:02:17,680
you know you can feel sorry for someone

1565
01:02:22,069 --> 01:02:20,319
because like you said uh when you're

1566
01:02:24,789 --> 01:02:22,079
role models uh

1567
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:24,799
your uncle steven avery um and we really

1568
01:02:30,390 --> 01:02:27,359
haven't gone much into his character but

1569
01:02:32,549 --> 01:02:30,400
um when when that's who is your role

1570
01:02:34,309 --> 01:02:32,559
model and brendan dassey was a shy kid

1571
01:02:35,910 --> 01:02:34,319
he hung around with his uncle a lot he

1572
01:02:38,230 --> 01:02:35,920
didn't have a lot of friends

1573
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:38,240
and he looks up to him and he's a

1574
01:02:41,349 --> 01:02:39,839
confused kid

1575
01:02:45,030 --> 01:02:41,359
so you can

1576
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:45,040
feel bad for him and feel bad that he he

1577
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:45,839
did

1578
01:02:50,230 --> 01:02:48,240
that he was manipulated but also given

1579
01:02:52,309 --> 01:02:50,240
what occurred if it's true

1580
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:52,319
that he did what he said he did and i

1581
01:02:57,190 --> 01:02:54,000
think it probably is

1582
01:02:59,430 --> 01:02:57,200
in the way he said it uh was

1583
01:03:01,190 --> 01:02:59,440
something should have gone off it seems

1584
01:03:02,390 --> 01:03:01,200
to me um

1585
01:03:05,270 --> 01:03:02,400
you know in his mind

1586
01:03:08,309 --> 01:03:05,280
when he when he's actually doing what he

1587
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:08,319
said he did you know raping a woman who

1588
01:03:14,069 --> 01:03:11,119
is tied up screaming for help

1589
01:03:16,630 --> 01:03:14,079
and then taking a knife to her

1590
01:03:18,150 --> 01:03:16,640
and then helping his uncle burn her body

1591
01:03:21,670 --> 01:03:18,160
i mean

1592
01:03:23,750 --> 01:03:21,680
regardless of who you are unless you're

1593
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:23,760
to the point where legally you're not

1594
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:25,680
responsible because of

1595
01:03:29,990 --> 01:03:27,920
mental disease and defects such that you

1596
01:03:31,270 --> 01:03:30,000
could not understand the wrongfulness of

1597
01:03:33,190 --> 01:03:31,280
your conduct

1598
01:03:35,349 --> 01:03:33,200
or that you

1599
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:35,359
couldn't could not conform your conduct

1600
01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:38,160
to the law that's the insanity play

1601
01:03:43,510 --> 01:03:40,880
short of that you know there

1602
01:03:45,349 --> 01:03:43,520
that's a part taking in in a really

1603
01:03:48,069 --> 01:03:45,359
serious crime so while you can feel

1604
01:03:51,349 --> 01:03:48,079
sorry for somebody you also have to keep

1605
01:03:52,630 --> 01:03:51,359
in mind uh free will and that he didn't

1606
01:03:55,750 --> 01:03:52,640
stop

1607
01:03:58,390 --> 01:03:55,760
and that teresa halbach's a real person

1608
01:04:02,630 --> 01:03:58,400
uh and frankly a wonderful person

1609
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:02,640
and has a family and we can't uh

1610
01:04:07,750 --> 01:04:04,720
you know in a justice system

1611
01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:07,760
have a situation where we feel bad and

1612
01:04:13,589 --> 01:04:11,280
therefore one's not culpable

1613
01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:13,599
but at the same at the same time you

1614
01:04:18,390 --> 01:04:16,000
know that goes to sentencing obviously

1615
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:18,400
he was not as culpable

1616
01:04:24,069 --> 01:04:21,119
as steven avery and the penalty and it

1617
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:24,079
wasn't given as life without capacity

1618
01:04:29,349 --> 01:04:26,799
possibility of parole uh like it could

1619
01:04:31,589 --> 01:04:29,359
have been he's eligible for parole i

1620
01:04:34,150 --> 01:04:31,599
think when he's 55 or something and that

1621
01:04:35,510 --> 01:04:34,160
assumes he doesn't get out he might and

1622
01:04:37,910 --> 01:04:35,520
there's some people who think it could

1623
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:37,920
have been a the judge could have set the

1624
01:04:43,029 --> 01:04:40,799
pro eligibility date earlier

1625
01:04:45,029 --> 01:04:43,039
because of what you just said

1626
01:04:46,390 --> 01:04:45,039
because he was manipulated by his uncle

1627
01:04:48,549 --> 01:04:46,400
never would have done this there's no

1628
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:48,559
question

1629
01:04:53,270 --> 01:04:50,480
but if

1630
01:04:54,789 --> 01:04:53,280
you know if they it's deemed

1631
01:04:58,630 --> 01:04:54,799
by

1632
01:05:01,109 --> 01:04:58,640
seven judges or well three judges right

1633
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:01,119
now on a panel in chicago

1634
01:05:03,430 --> 01:05:02,400
uh

1635
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:03,440
and

1636
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:06,160
you know we we place this kind of magic

1637
01:05:09,750 --> 01:05:08,079
power in them because three other judges

1638
01:05:12,710 --> 01:05:09,760
on a different court of appeals panel

1639
01:05:14,630 --> 01:05:12,720
might might rule different and

1640
01:05:16,470 --> 01:05:14,640
a seven judge panel might rule different

1641
01:05:18,390 --> 01:05:16,480
and the u.s supreme court might rule

1642
01:05:19,349 --> 01:05:18,400
different but if

1643
01:05:27,029 --> 01:05:19,359
uh

1644
01:05:29,510 --> 01:05:27,039
they believe and they issue

1645
01:05:30,390 --> 01:05:29,520
a decision saying that

1646
01:05:33,270 --> 01:05:30,400
um

1647
01:05:34,630 --> 01:05:33,280
that his co his confession was not

1648
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:34,640
voluntary

1649
01:05:39,589 --> 01:05:37,119
we have to accept that and

1650
01:05:43,349 --> 01:05:39,599
if it was an obvious call that not being

1651
01:05:46,230 --> 01:05:43,359
voluntary we absolutely

1652
01:05:49,109 --> 01:05:46,240
must accept as as citizens you know the

1653
01:05:50,340 --> 01:05:49,119
idea that even though someone commits a

1654
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:50,350
crime like this

1655
01:05:55,029 --> 01:05:52,559
[Music]

1656
01:05:57,750 --> 01:05:55,039
they go free because there's a larger

1657
01:06:00,150 --> 01:05:57,760
issue at stake

1658
01:06:01,910 --> 01:06:00,160
all of our rights are constitutional

1659
01:06:04,549 --> 01:06:01,920
rights

1660
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:04,559
that go back hundreds of years right

1661
01:06:09,270 --> 01:06:05,920
right now

1662
01:06:12,870 --> 01:06:09,280
um let's get back to the stephen avery

1663
01:06:15,029 --> 01:06:12,880
case and teresa halbach um

1664
01:06:17,670 --> 01:06:15,039
what is the what would you consider the

1665
01:06:18,549 --> 01:06:17,680
strongest foothold or

1666
01:06:20,069 --> 01:06:18,559
used

1667
01:06:23,029 --> 01:06:20,079
most of all

1668
01:06:24,630 --> 01:06:23,039
as far as the stephen avery supporter

1669
01:06:26,069 --> 01:06:24,640
you know that think he's innocent what

1670
01:06:29,430 --> 01:06:26,079
is her strongest

1671
01:06:31,349 --> 01:06:29,440
case that you're aware of

1672
01:06:33,829 --> 01:06:31,359
well i think the key

1673
01:06:35,990 --> 01:06:33,839
i think people focus on the key and like

1674
01:06:40,309 --> 01:06:36,000
like you were you questioned earlier the

1675
01:06:41,910 --> 01:06:40,319
lack of blood but the key um

1676
01:06:44,309 --> 01:06:41,920
uh you know the lack of blood mostly

1677
01:06:46,789 --> 01:06:44,319
goes to the dasty case but forget about

1678
01:06:48,549 --> 01:06:46,799
dassey's confession again for a minute

1679
01:06:49,670 --> 01:06:48,559
and you're left with

1680
01:06:52,950 --> 01:06:49,680
um

1681
01:06:54,950 --> 01:06:52,960
uh what else people might point to and

1682
01:06:55,910 --> 01:06:54,960
logically point to is this just looks

1683
01:07:02,470 --> 01:06:55,920
too

1684
01:07:05,510 --> 01:07:02,480
you know if if it's just as you see it

1685
01:07:07,910 --> 01:07:05,520
in making a murderer and you you're told

1686
01:07:09,990 --> 01:07:07,920
uh that there were whatever five or six

1687
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:10,000
searches and this is the seventh search

1688
01:07:12,710 --> 01:07:11,440
and you're shown

1689
01:07:14,710 --> 01:07:12,720
this key

1690
01:07:16,789 --> 01:07:14,720
uh with a camera

1691
01:07:20,870 --> 01:07:16,799
zooming in

1692
01:07:23,190 --> 01:07:20,880
plain plainly visible on the floor

1693
01:07:26,309 --> 01:07:23,200
and you're told that it was two

1694
01:07:28,789 --> 01:07:26,319
manitowoc officers that found the key

1695
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:28,799
despite the other jurisdiction having

1696
01:07:32,789 --> 01:07:30,319
searched uh

1697
01:07:35,829 --> 01:07:32,799
the bedroom several times earlier

1698
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:35,839
and you're shown um

1699
01:07:40,870 --> 01:07:37,920
you're not shown the explanation that

1700
01:07:42,789 --> 01:07:40,880
they gave for the finding of the key

1701
01:07:44,630 --> 01:07:42,799
and you're only shown

1702
01:07:48,069 --> 01:07:44,640
the calumet county

1703
01:07:50,069 --> 01:07:48,079
officer uh in his testimony on making a

1704
01:07:52,950 --> 01:07:50,079
murder when he suggests you know

1705
01:07:57,029 --> 01:07:52,960
anything's possible but you're not shown

1706
01:07:59,829 --> 01:07:57,039
um the rest of his testimony which which

1707
01:08:01,510 --> 01:07:59,839
really bolstered lincoln coburn's claim

1708
01:08:03,829 --> 01:08:01,520
that he was there the whole time and he

1709
01:08:05,829 --> 01:08:03,839
definitely would have noticed given the

1710
01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:05,839
size of the room and the relative

1711
01:08:09,670 --> 01:08:08,160
positioning of the three officers had

1712
01:08:11,990 --> 01:08:09,680
they planted the key

1713
01:08:14,309 --> 01:08:12,000
you know it it

1714
01:08:17,269 --> 01:08:14,319
it it is something you walk away with

1715
01:08:20,149 --> 01:08:17,279
though if that's all you see as um

1716
01:08:22,070 --> 01:08:20,159
as something that you think that's just

1717
01:08:23,110 --> 01:08:22,080
it's obviously planted

1718
01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:23,120
um

1719
01:08:27,829 --> 01:08:25,359
i can't tell you no one can tell you

1720
01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:27,839
with absolute certainty other than jim

1721
01:08:33,030 --> 01:08:30,880
coburn and andy link uh andy coburn and

1722
01:08:35,269 --> 01:08:33,040
jim link the two officers

1723
01:08:39,910 --> 01:08:35,279
uh who are accused of planning the key

1724
01:08:42,309 --> 01:08:39,920
that it wasn't planted um but

1725
01:08:45,990 --> 01:08:42,319
not only do i believe it wasn't planted

1726
01:08:48,070 --> 01:08:46,000
and it's not just because i know them

1727
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:48,080
and know them to be incredibly honorable

1728
01:08:53,990 --> 01:08:51,839
officers but it's because of the details

1729
01:08:56,229 --> 01:08:54,000
of what they were there to do and what

1730
01:08:57,829 --> 01:08:56,239
making a murderer left out

1731
01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:57,839
i think there's a picture that i sent

1732
01:09:01,990 --> 01:09:00,400
you but that bookcase making a murder

1733
01:09:04,309 --> 01:09:02,000
never showed the backing of that

1734
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:04,319
bookcase and that

1735
01:09:09,990 --> 01:09:07,679
it did come apart the back uh

1736
01:09:12,470 --> 01:09:10,000
the sort of cheap paneling on the back

1737
01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:12,480
of the bookcase where there's a slip and

1738
01:09:17,030 --> 01:09:14,480
where the key could easily have

1739
01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:17,040
dropped from and where the officers

1740
01:09:22,229 --> 01:09:20,000
testified that was what the state of it

1741
01:09:24,070 --> 01:09:22,239
after they pulled it off the wall and

1742
01:09:25,110 --> 01:09:24,080
shoved these things back

1743
01:09:26,950 --> 01:09:25,120
um

1744
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:26,960
so there's an explanation that wasn't

1745
01:09:30,149 --> 01:09:28,719
shown and the

1746
01:09:32,630 --> 01:09:30,159
the other thing is

1747
01:09:34,550 --> 01:09:32,640
the scope of their search of the bedroom

1748
01:09:37,510 --> 01:09:34,560
at that point wasn't

1749
01:09:40,309 --> 01:09:37,520
um it was very very specific they were

1750
01:09:42,149 --> 01:09:40,319
sent back that search warrant was uh

1751
01:09:42,950 --> 01:09:42,159
specifically for

1752
01:09:45,590 --> 01:09:42,960
um

1753
01:09:47,669 --> 01:09:45,600
items like pornography and i think

1754
01:09:51,749 --> 01:09:47,679
handcuffs or any

1755
01:09:54,149 --> 01:09:51,759
any items of bondage suggesting bondage

1756
01:09:56,310 --> 01:09:54,159
and the idea was if there's hardcore

1757
01:09:57,680 --> 01:09:56,320
porn in avery's bedroom or somewhere in

1758
01:09:59,189 --> 01:09:57,690
the residence

1759
01:10:01,510 --> 01:09:59,199
[Music]

1760
01:10:03,270 --> 01:10:01,520
having to do with bondage that that

1761
01:10:06,070 --> 01:10:03,280
might corroborate

1762
01:10:07,669 --> 01:10:06,080
or suggest how

1763
01:10:08,470 --> 01:10:07,679
a rape and murder might have occurred

1764
01:10:14,950 --> 01:10:08,480
and

1765
01:10:17,189 --> 01:10:14,960
it was very specific to those types of

1766
01:10:20,070 --> 01:10:17,199
items so they weren't in there looking

1767
01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:20,080
and searching for major items of you

1768
01:10:23,910 --> 01:10:22,000
know blood or

1769
01:10:24,790 --> 01:10:23,920
keys or weapons that had already been

1770
01:10:27,590 --> 01:10:24,800
done

1771
01:10:29,590 --> 01:10:27,600
it was a very specific detailed search

1772
01:10:32,709 --> 01:10:29,600
so other officers wouldn't have gone

1773
01:10:34,870 --> 01:10:32,719
through all of the contents of avery's

1774
01:10:37,110 --> 01:10:34,880
bookcase um and they did find

1775
01:10:39,110 --> 01:10:37,120
pornography in these pamphlets and

1776
01:10:40,950 --> 01:10:39,120
binders in the bookcase

1777
01:10:42,790 --> 01:10:40,960
and they were shoving them back in

1778
01:10:45,350 --> 01:10:42,800
colburn shoved it back in frankly i

1779
01:10:46,630 --> 01:10:45,360
think he was kind of disgusted by some

1780
01:10:49,750 --> 01:10:46,640
of what he saw

1781
01:10:52,870 --> 01:10:49,760
and uh and he believes that's when the

1782
01:10:53,910 --> 01:10:52,880
key fell out from behind uh this

1783
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:53,920
paneling

1784
01:10:57,750 --> 01:10:55,679
which by the way is a perfect place for

1785
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:57,760
avery to hide the key so the last thing

1786
01:11:02,790 --> 01:11:00,000
he had to do was crush the car

1787
01:11:05,270 --> 01:11:02,800
and you need the key to move the car

1788
01:11:10,709 --> 01:11:08,310
tucking it in between this uh backing

1789
01:11:12,790 --> 01:11:10,719
this paneling and the bookcase in his

1790
01:11:16,149 --> 01:11:12,800
bedroom would be a

1791
01:11:18,149 --> 01:11:16,159
a fine place a logical place for him to

1792
01:11:19,590 --> 01:11:18,159
to hide the key none of that was

1793
01:11:21,270 --> 01:11:19,600
explained though in making a murder and

1794
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:21,280
that's my problem with it you know i

1795
01:11:25,189 --> 01:11:22,960
can't prove

1796
01:11:27,669 --> 01:11:25,199
with a hundred percent certainty you

1797
01:11:29,510 --> 01:11:27,679
can't prove a negative

1798
01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:29,520
but you should at least the public

1799
01:11:35,030 --> 01:11:32,400
should get the other side of it and

1800
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:35,040
not just an edited and manipulated

1801
01:11:38,229 --> 01:11:37,280
version of what the creators of making a

1802
01:11:41,110 --> 01:11:38,239
murderer

1803
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:41,120
want uh want the public to believe yes i

1804
01:11:45,990 --> 01:11:43,440
i i did put that image up anyone

1805
01:11:48,709 --> 01:11:46,000
watching youtube um can see you know the

1806
01:11:51,110 --> 01:11:48,719
images as we go along here now did did

1807
01:11:53,110 --> 01:11:51,120
he actually have a plan

1808
01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:53,120
that you're aware of any way to document

1809
01:11:55,990 --> 01:11:54,480
that he had a plan to have that car

1810
01:11:58,229 --> 01:11:56,000
crushed

1811
01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:58,239
at the yard

1812
01:12:04,149 --> 01:12:00,480
well he didn't talk to the police he you

1813
01:12:06,630 --> 01:12:04,159
know he um well he denied involvement so

1814
01:12:10,550 --> 01:12:06,640
there's no version of what he did

1815
01:12:13,910 --> 01:12:10,560
of what he's uh his involvement um

1816
01:12:17,189 --> 01:12:13,920
but um i think it's a fair inference

1817
01:12:18,950 --> 01:12:17,199
that uh that was the next step um the

1818
01:12:22,550 --> 01:12:18,960
vehicle was found

1819
01:12:24,790 --> 01:12:22,560
just up that drive um

1820
01:12:28,229 --> 01:12:24,800
from the car crusher

1821
01:12:29,510 --> 01:12:28,239
um if you think about how this this

1822
01:12:31,990 --> 01:12:29,520
you know

1823
01:12:34,229 --> 01:12:32,000
logically would have happened uh you you

1824
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:34,239
need to get rid of evidence assume avery

1825
01:12:39,590 --> 01:12:36,880
and dassey did it like dassey said

1826
01:12:43,030 --> 01:12:39,600
you need to get rid of obviously all the

1827
01:12:46,070 --> 01:12:43,040
evidence um before police are there so

1828
01:12:50,550 --> 01:12:46,080
you you gotta you start with the body um

1829
01:12:52,950 --> 01:12:50,560
you you must dispose of the body and lo

1830
01:12:54,470 --> 01:12:52,960
and behold there's a a very large fire

1831
01:12:57,830 --> 01:12:54,480
that night where the two of them are

1832
01:12:59,350 --> 01:12:57,840
there and bones found the next day

1833
01:13:01,430 --> 01:12:59,360
and um

1834
01:13:03,110 --> 01:13:01,440
and uh

1835
01:13:05,910 --> 01:13:03,120
and then you get rid of

1836
01:13:07,350 --> 01:13:05,920
bleach or you get rid of blood stains in

1837
01:13:08,950 --> 01:13:07,360
the garage

1838
01:13:11,750 --> 01:13:08,960
um you

1839
01:13:13,830 --> 01:13:11,760
hide the car because that's other

1840
01:13:16,149 --> 01:13:13,840
evidence obviously that teresa holdback

1841
01:13:18,149 --> 01:13:16,159
was there police would show up and there

1842
01:13:20,709 --> 01:13:18,159
her vehicle would be that's not what you

1843
01:13:22,390 --> 01:13:20,719
want to have seen if you're the killer

1844
01:13:25,669 --> 01:13:22,400
so it would make sense that he would

1845
01:13:28,870 --> 01:13:25,679
hide the car and the the

1846
01:13:31,430 --> 01:13:28,880
lack of uh or the fact that he had not

1847
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:31,440
yet uh gotten around

1848
01:13:34,550 --> 01:13:33,520
the car crushing the car removing the

1849
01:13:36,790 --> 01:13:34,560
car

1850
01:13:39,669 --> 01:13:36,800
uh makes sense that would be the last

1851
01:13:40,709 --> 01:13:39,679
and the most difficult thing to do um

1852
01:13:43,189 --> 01:13:40,719
when you

1853
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:43,199
apparently in a salvage are or anywhere

1854
01:13:47,430 --> 01:13:44,640
where you do this

1855
01:13:50,390 --> 01:13:47,440
you need to first of all take the engine

1856
01:13:52,310 --> 01:13:50,400
black out so it's not an easy process

1857
01:13:55,990 --> 01:13:52,320
you have to lift the thing up with a

1858
01:13:58,310 --> 01:13:56,000
forklift the the body of the car

1859
01:13:59,110 --> 01:13:58,320
and it's very noisy

1860
01:14:00,550 --> 01:13:59,120
it

1861
01:14:01,750 --> 01:14:00,560
is something that would have attracted

1862
01:14:05,030 --> 01:14:01,760
the attention

1863
01:14:07,110 --> 01:14:05,040
you know the public their um customers

1864
01:14:08,470 --> 01:14:07,120
as well as his family members who are

1865
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:08,480
working there you'd think they would

1866
01:14:11,990 --> 01:14:11,120
wonder what a relatively new rav4 was

1867
01:14:13,910 --> 01:14:12,000
doing

1868
01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:13,920
you know in the car crashers so the

1869
01:14:17,910 --> 01:14:16,000
theory is and it can be no more than a

1870
01:14:19,990 --> 01:14:17,920
theory you know but i think it's a

1871
01:14:22,790 --> 01:14:20,000
logical theory um

1872
01:14:24,070 --> 01:14:22,800
is that that was the next thing to do

1873
01:14:26,070 --> 01:14:24,080
um

1874
01:14:27,430 --> 01:14:26,080
but the car was found before he could

1875
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:27,440
get to it

1876
01:14:31,830 --> 01:14:29,280
it's believed that he was going to be

1877
01:14:33,270 --> 01:14:31,840
coming back the next day

1878
01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:33,280
from up north

1879
01:14:38,709 --> 01:14:36,159
which would have been a sunday i believe

1880
01:14:40,550 --> 01:14:38,719
which would have been a time that he

1881
01:14:43,510 --> 01:14:40,560
would have been able to dispose of the

1882
01:14:45,030 --> 01:14:43,520
car

1883
01:14:47,750 --> 01:14:45,040
it's a theory that makes a lot more

1884
01:14:50,790 --> 01:14:47,760
sense i think than than the conspiracy

1885
01:14:53,110 --> 01:14:50,800
theories but again the the people who

1886
01:14:55,510 --> 01:14:53,120
are convinced that police set them up

1887
01:14:56,550 --> 01:14:55,520
and i'm part of this conspiracy to cover

1888
01:14:59,189 --> 01:14:56,560
it up

1889
01:15:01,350 --> 01:14:59,199
they'll say i'm just speculating but um

1890
01:15:04,149 --> 01:15:01,360
you need to you know we're not we're

1891
01:15:06,390 --> 01:15:04,159
talking about one bit and like i i

1892
01:15:07,430 --> 01:15:06,400
really uh most prosecutors i think try

1893
01:15:09,430 --> 01:15:07,440
to

1894
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:09,440
[Music]

1895
01:15:14,550 --> 01:15:12,719
focus a jury's attention um on during

1896
01:15:16,310 --> 01:15:14,560
closing argument is

1897
01:15:18,709 --> 01:15:16,320
that's the whole point you know if you

1898
01:15:20,550 --> 01:15:18,719
only focus on one thing

1899
01:15:23,110 --> 01:15:20,560
and you forget

1900
01:15:25,189 --> 01:15:23,120
all of the other pieces of the evidence

1901
01:15:26,870 --> 01:15:25,199
you can have doubt or you can think boy

1902
01:15:28,870 --> 01:15:26,880
that prosecutor is just speculating

1903
01:15:31,110 --> 01:15:28,880
about what happened on that you know on

1904
01:15:34,790 --> 01:15:31,120
this specific piece so it must all be

1905
01:15:37,350 --> 01:15:34,800
bunk you know but you can't ignore um it

1906
01:15:40,950 --> 01:15:37,360
seems to me if you're trying to

1907
01:15:43,030 --> 01:15:40,960
rationally analyze a set of facts you

1908
01:15:44,790 --> 01:15:43,040
can't ignore all the other facts and

1909
01:15:45,590 --> 01:15:44,800
inferences that

1910
01:15:48,149 --> 01:15:45,600
that

1911
01:15:50,070 --> 01:15:48,159
in this case point so clearly

1912
01:15:51,669 --> 01:15:50,080
to avery's guilt and

1913
01:15:53,510 --> 01:15:51,679
we haven't really talked about a lot of

1914
01:15:55,030 --> 01:15:53,520
that but there is a lot

1915
01:15:57,669 --> 01:15:55,040
um

1916
01:16:00,149 --> 01:15:57,679
a huge amount of of evidence pointing to

1917
01:16:01,510 --> 01:16:00,159
his guilt in addition to just the the

1918
01:16:04,870 --> 01:16:01,520
physical evidence

1919
01:16:07,189 --> 01:16:04,880
um which alone is incredibly damning you

1920
01:16:08,870 --> 01:16:07,199
know for instance the blood that people

1921
01:16:09,669 --> 01:16:08,880
see and i think one of the photos you

1922
01:16:12,310 --> 01:16:09,679
have

1923
01:16:15,030 --> 01:16:12,320
is the blood in the rav4

1924
01:16:19,030 --> 01:16:15,040
and i think there's also a photo of a

1925
01:16:23,830 --> 01:16:20,470
okay great

1926
01:16:26,709 --> 01:16:23,840
um that cut is on his right

1927
01:16:28,630 --> 01:16:26,719
middle finger on the i think it's on the

1928
01:16:29,350 --> 01:16:28,640
left side i don't have the youtube up

1929
01:16:31,030 --> 01:16:29,360
but

1930
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:31,040
try to uh

1931
01:16:36,149 --> 01:16:33,520
you know viewers if act like you're you

1932
01:16:38,870 --> 01:16:36,159
have your keys and you're starting your

1933
01:16:41,750 --> 01:16:38,880
car you put your key in the ignition

1934
01:16:44,630 --> 01:16:41,760
and you're turning the ignition and if

1935
01:16:45,669 --> 01:16:44,640
you see where some of that blood is

1936
01:16:51,830 --> 01:16:45,679
it

1937
01:16:56,630 --> 01:16:51,840
that

1938
01:16:58,149 --> 01:16:56,640
there but you have evidence clear-cut

1939
01:16:59,990 --> 01:16:58,159
evidence of

1940
01:17:02,550 --> 01:17:00,000
active bleeding what would have been

1941
01:17:04,229 --> 01:17:02,560
active bleeding at the time because it's

1942
01:17:06,070 --> 01:17:04,239
a wound that

1943
01:17:08,790 --> 01:17:06,080
dassey said occurred that night that

1944
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:08,800
avery got that night i think when when

1945
01:17:15,110 --> 01:17:13,270
i think shortly after the murder during

1946
01:17:16,630 --> 01:17:15,120
the disposal maybe when they were

1947
01:17:18,630 --> 01:17:16,640
putting theresa

1948
01:17:20,630 --> 01:17:18,640
theresa's body in the rav4 but that he

1949
01:17:23,510 --> 01:17:20,640
got that cut that night and then you

1950
01:17:25,990 --> 01:17:23,520
have this blood in the location where it

1951
01:17:28,229 --> 01:17:26,000
was i mean that's incredibly powerful

1952
01:17:30,790 --> 01:17:28,239
evidence to me

1953
01:17:34,070 --> 01:17:30,800
especially when it's been debunked that

1954
01:17:37,750 --> 01:17:34,080
that blood came from the blood vial

1955
01:17:40,630 --> 01:17:37,760
um because there was no edta in it in

1956
01:17:41,910 --> 01:17:40,640
the preservative that would be in a vial

1957
01:17:45,030 --> 01:17:41,920
um

1958
01:17:46,709 --> 01:17:45,040
and and i know the avery uh supporters

1959
01:17:48,550 --> 01:17:46,719
will say that that test wasn't

1960
01:17:50,630 --> 01:17:48,560
sufficient but you know we've been

1961
01:17:53,110 --> 01:17:50,640
waiting forever for a test from kathleen

1962
01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:53,120
zellner to show that there was edta in

1963
01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:55,440
it or that it came from somewhere else

1964
01:18:03,590 --> 01:18:01,189
none of that

1965
01:18:06,950 --> 01:18:03,600
has has come through the best evidence

1966
01:18:08,790 --> 01:18:06,960
we have is that it came exactly from

1967
01:18:10,229 --> 01:18:08,800
where we're looking from avery's cut we

1968
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:10,239
can't assume

1969
01:18:13,990 --> 01:18:12,480
seems to me uh

1970
01:18:15,590 --> 01:18:14,000
uh

1971
01:18:18,630 --> 01:18:15,600
that that some

1972
01:18:20,550 --> 01:18:18,640
test that uh is just alleged

1973
01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:20,560
to uh to

1974
01:18:24,470 --> 01:18:21,920
to uh

1975
01:18:27,030 --> 01:18:24,480
uh is going to prove all this uh

1976
01:18:29,350 --> 01:18:27,040
planting without any proof of it uh

1977
01:18:32,310 --> 01:18:29,360
whatsoever so far yeah i mean if it if

1978
01:18:35,110 --> 01:18:32,320
it wasn't for that preservative the edta

1979
01:18:36,310 --> 01:18:35,120
whatever it is um you know i mean

1980
01:18:37,910 --> 01:18:36,320
this uh

1981
01:18:39,669 --> 01:18:37,920
you know been it would have been a much

1982
01:18:40,870 --> 01:18:39,679
tougher case i would think but i mean

1983
01:18:47,110 --> 01:18:40,880
that pretty much

1984
01:18:48,790 --> 01:18:47,120
if it's not in that you know and uh

1985
01:18:49,510 --> 01:18:48,800
going back to

1986
01:18:52,709 --> 01:18:49,520
the

1987
01:18:55,990 --> 01:18:52,719
uh two defense attorneys we have dean

1988
01:18:57,270 --> 01:18:56,000
strang and jerome budding uh however you

1989
01:18:58,390 --> 01:18:57,280
pronounce i forget how he pronounced his

1990
01:19:01,430 --> 01:18:58,400
last name

1991
01:19:04,470 --> 01:19:01,440
now they their stance on one of their

1992
01:19:05,510 --> 01:19:04,480
defense uh tactics was the bones were

1993
01:19:07,270 --> 01:19:05,520
moved

1994
01:19:08,550 --> 01:19:07,280
and i understand that the bones actually

1995
01:19:11,189 --> 01:19:08,560
had some

1996
01:19:13,830 --> 01:19:11,199
wires emeshed from

1997
01:19:14,950 --> 01:19:13,840
car tires in them as well

1998
01:19:19,510 --> 01:19:14,960
um

1999
01:19:24,070 --> 01:19:19,520
that the bones were moved and what

2000
01:19:29,990 --> 01:19:26,550
well the issue is where there were some

2001
01:19:34,070 --> 01:19:30,000
bones found in a barrel as well

2002
01:19:38,070 --> 01:19:34,080
and maybe some human bones found

2003
01:19:39,830 --> 01:19:38,080
in another location uh in a quarry but

2004
01:19:41,830 --> 01:19:39,840
it's not even clear that those are human

2005
01:19:43,830 --> 01:19:41,840
bones but there was more than the one

2006
01:19:46,070 --> 01:19:43,840
location

2007
01:19:48,470 --> 01:19:46,080
the most of the bones were still found

2008
01:19:49,990 --> 01:19:48,480
in the in the fire pit but

2009
01:19:51,030 --> 01:19:50,000
um

2010
01:19:55,510 --> 01:19:51,040
you know

2011
01:19:59,110 --> 01:19:55,520
the the like you just said there were um

2012
01:20:01,830 --> 01:19:59,120
steel belts uh from tires uh that were

2013
01:20:02,950 --> 01:20:01,840
enmeshed with the bones um

2014
01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:02,960
that would be

2015
01:20:06,790 --> 01:20:05,360
really unusual for for

2016
01:20:10,390 --> 01:20:06,800
that to have

2017
01:20:11,270 --> 01:20:10,400
been moved intact um from another place

2018
01:20:16,870 --> 01:20:11,280
to

2019
01:20:20,550 --> 01:20:16,880
tires are accelerants

2020
01:20:21,830 --> 01:20:20,560
avery had told dassey to put tires in

2021
01:20:23,270 --> 01:20:21,840
uh

2022
01:20:26,149 --> 01:20:23,280
to the fire to

2023
01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:26,159
to get to the heat uh necessary i'm sure

2024
01:20:30,790 --> 01:20:27,920
i mean they wanted

2025
01:20:33,270 --> 01:20:30,800
the uh the hottest fire they could get

2026
01:20:35,270 --> 01:20:33,280
um bones

2027
01:20:38,870 --> 01:20:35,280
if you just try to kind of think it

2028
01:20:41,030 --> 01:20:38,880
through logically again if if you have

2029
01:20:43,510 --> 01:20:41,040
done your best found the best spot that

2030
01:20:46,630 --> 01:20:43,520
you can

2031
01:20:49,030 --> 01:20:46,640
unfortunately burn the body

2032
01:20:50,630 --> 01:20:49,040
the large fire pit you need to see a

2033
01:20:53,030 --> 01:20:50,640
picture i think there's one on there

2034
01:20:58,070 --> 01:20:53,040
this isn't just a you know a backyard

2035
01:20:59,270 --> 01:20:58,080
fire pit this is a huge place which a

2036
01:21:01,590 --> 01:20:59,280
circle

2037
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:01,600
that it would it would be capable and

2038
01:21:05,189 --> 01:21:03,290
indeed did

2039
01:21:07,830 --> 01:21:05,199
[Music]

2040
01:21:11,350 --> 01:21:07,840
hold a very large fire and over many

2041
01:21:13,189 --> 01:21:11,360
hours would be capable of incinerating a

2042
01:21:15,189 --> 01:21:13,199
body

2043
01:21:17,110 --> 01:21:15,199
best place for him to do it was right

2044
01:21:18,070 --> 01:21:17,120
there um

2045
01:21:19,990 --> 01:21:18,080
so

2046
01:21:21,910 --> 01:21:20,000
uh or the easiest place for him to do it

2047
01:21:23,990 --> 01:21:21,920
was there that night

2048
01:21:26,790 --> 01:21:24,000
presumably he would think he had some

2049
01:21:27,669 --> 01:21:26,800
time um otherwise

2050
01:21:29,430 --> 01:21:27,679
uh

2051
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:29,440
so if you have a little time you do it

2052
01:21:33,910 --> 01:21:31,600
that night but but then

2053
01:21:36,070 --> 01:21:33,920
as you get more time if if you've done

2054
01:21:38,229 --> 01:21:36,080
that

2055
01:21:40,470 --> 01:21:38,239
to the body as a killer

2056
01:21:43,430 --> 01:21:40,480
you would think you'd want to move that

2057
01:21:45,350 --> 01:21:43,440
evidence further away from your house

2058
01:21:47,510 --> 01:21:45,360
from a fire pit that's

2059
01:21:49,830 --> 01:21:47,520
that's very close to your house so it's

2060
01:21:53,030 --> 01:21:49,840
logical it seems to me that

2061
01:21:55,750 --> 01:21:53,040
some of that he would have moved

2062
01:21:58,149 --> 01:21:55,760
into other areas and spread it either

2063
01:22:00,070 --> 01:21:58,159
spread it into different locations so

2064
01:22:02,229 --> 01:22:00,080
it's less likely to be

2065
01:22:05,030 --> 01:22:02,239
seen but in any event try to get it out

2066
01:22:08,149 --> 01:22:05,040
of that primary burn site

2067
01:22:11,030 --> 01:22:08,159
because that ties it to directly to him

2068
01:22:13,189 --> 01:22:11,040
to avery himself right right now

2069
01:22:15,030 --> 01:22:13,199
um someone you know was speculating how

2070
01:22:17,270 --> 01:22:15,040
long does it take to

2071
01:22:19,030 --> 01:22:17,280
burn a body and i know crematories have

2072
01:22:21,510 --> 01:22:19,040
you know very high heat

2073
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:21,520
but a regular fire um you know and i

2074
01:22:24,709 --> 01:22:23,520
understand that's the way it has been

2075
01:22:27,030 --> 01:22:24,719
done for

2076
01:22:30,870 --> 01:22:27,040
you know thousands and years

2077
01:22:33,669 --> 01:22:30,880
but still um it does take a long time i

2078
01:22:36,550 --> 01:22:33,679
would think right

2079
01:22:38,550 --> 01:22:36,560
oh i'm sure it does and there's been on

2080
01:22:41,590 --> 01:22:38,560
reddit different um

2081
01:22:44,390 --> 01:22:41,600
links um and different estimates of

2082
01:22:46,870 --> 01:22:44,400
those issues this was a fire that burned

2083
01:22:47,990 --> 01:22:46,880
for a long time and it was a very large

2084
01:22:49,030 --> 01:22:48,000
fire

2085
01:22:50,149 --> 01:22:49,040
um

2086
01:22:52,229 --> 01:22:50,159
so

2087
01:22:55,350 --> 01:22:52,239
you know i don't have the exact degree

2088
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:55,360
fahrenheit uh and the length of hours it

2089
01:22:58,870 --> 01:22:56,880
would take

2090
01:23:03,030 --> 01:22:58,880
but i don't think there was any credible

2091
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:03,040
evidence at trial at all um that

2092
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:04,290
that a fire

2093
01:23:07,910 --> 01:23:05,760
[Music]

2094
01:23:09,830 --> 01:23:07,920
of that size in

2095
01:23:12,870 --> 01:23:09,840
uh or at least that would be

2096
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:12,880
it's capable of uh uh if there was a

2097
01:23:19,270 --> 01:23:16,080
fire in the in that size of that pit

2098
01:23:21,590 --> 01:23:19,280
uh to to disintegrate uh a body the way

2099
01:23:23,830 --> 01:23:21,600
it was done right right um i'm not sure

2100
01:23:27,430 --> 01:23:23,840
if you can answer this or not

2101
01:23:29,430 --> 01:23:27,440
but in this particular case was there

2102
01:23:31,910 --> 01:23:29,440
any evidence that

2103
01:23:33,910 --> 01:23:31,920
had been obtained that just simply was

2104
01:23:36,470 --> 01:23:33,920
not admissible in court that you're

2105
01:23:41,030 --> 01:23:39,350
well as far as suppressed evidence

2106
01:23:42,709 --> 01:23:41,040
the defense

2107
01:23:45,030 --> 01:23:42,719
one of the things they did is they filed

2108
01:23:47,189 --> 01:23:45,040
a motion to suppress

2109
01:23:50,790 --> 01:23:47,199
all the evidence the physical evidence

2110
01:23:53,430 --> 01:23:50,800
saying that the volunteer search party

2111
01:23:55,110 --> 01:23:53,440
was acting sort of as agents of the

2112
01:23:57,430 --> 01:23:55,120
police

2113
01:23:59,270 --> 01:23:57,440
so and that they did not have probable

2114
01:24:00,870 --> 01:23:59,280
cause to search

2115
01:24:04,149 --> 01:24:00,880
the salvage yard

2116
01:24:05,830 --> 01:24:04,159
and there is law that if um you know

2117
01:24:08,390 --> 01:24:05,840
the police have to have probable cause

2118
01:24:09,990 --> 01:24:08,400
before they search a premises for

2119
01:24:11,830 --> 01:24:10,000
evidence of a crime they have to get it

2120
01:24:13,189 --> 01:24:11,840
through a warrant or one of the

2121
01:24:15,030 --> 01:24:13,199
exceptions and they didn't have a

2122
01:24:17,350 --> 01:24:15,040
warrant

2123
01:24:19,110 --> 01:24:17,360
um and they there wasn't an exception

2124
01:24:20,790 --> 01:24:19,120
that would have allowed the police to go

2125
01:24:23,990 --> 01:24:20,800
on there at that time

2126
01:24:27,270 --> 01:24:24,000
um so the defense theory was or their

2127
01:24:29,270 --> 01:24:27,280
claim or their argument was that um

2128
01:24:32,709 --> 01:24:29,280
the volunteer search party were

2129
01:24:33,990 --> 01:24:32,719
basically agents of the police

2130
01:24:36,229 --> 01:24:34,000
and since

2131
01:24:39,110 --> 01:24:36,239
they were agents of the police

2132
01:24:41,830 --> 01:24:39,120
the law would essentially if they were

2133
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:41,840
acting as agents of the police make that

2134
01:24:46,390 --> 01:24:43,679
search unlawful since there wasn't a

2135
01:24:48,870 --> 01:24:46,400
warrant it was litigated um

2136
01:24:49,750 --> 01:24:48,880
and i believe i would think it would

2137
01:24:52,629 --> 01:24:49,760
have been

2138
01:24:54,629 --> 01:24:52,639
brought up on appeal as well

2139
01:24:57,830 --> 01:24:54,639
and it was clear to the courts that

2140
01:25:00,149 --> 01:24:57,840
looked at it that the search party

2141
01:25:02,950 --> 01:25:00,159
folks were not acting as agents of the

2142
01:25:05,030 --> 01:25:02,960
police so all the physical evidence got

2143
01:25:07,830 --> 01:25:05,040
in there's also some question about the

2144
01:25:09,110 --> 01:25:07,840
search warrant that

2145
01:25:11,030 --> 01:25:09,120
that

2146
01:25:12,790 --> 01:25:11,040
they should have renewed the search

2147
01:25:15,110 --> 01:25:12,800
warrant but there's kind of complicated

2148
01:25:16,950 --> 01:25:15,120
law on that as well a continuing search

2149
01:25:19,430 --> 01:25:16,960
is allowed when it's such a huge

2150
01:25:21,590 --> 01:25:19,440
premises like this

2151
01:25:23,590 --> 01:25:21,600
lots of evidence was not admitted that

2152
01:25:24,950 --> 01:25:23,600
the state wanted to get in

2153
01:25:28,070 --> 01:25:24,960
to show

2154
01:25:30,390 --> 01:25:28,080
avery's some of his past conduct

2155
01:25:33,270 --> 01:25:30,400
including some really

2156
01:25:36,709 --> 01:25:33,280
um some some really despicable

2157
01:25:40,070 --> 01:25:36,719
uh conduct but that the trial judge

2158
01:25:41,990 --> 01:25:40,080
found and i think rightfully so

2159
01:25:44,470 --> 01:25:42,000
found it should not be admissible at

2160
01:25:45,990 --> 01:25:44,480
trial it's called other acts evidence

2161
01:25:48,390 --> 01:25:46,000
but

2162
01:25:50,709 --> 01:25:48,400
you know we want to have juries convict

2163
01:25:54,070 --> 01:25:50,719
or not convict based upon evidence

2164
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:54,080
having to do with their specific act and

2165
01:25:59,110 --> 01:25:56,159
not what a person did

2166
01:26:00,709 --> 01:25:59,120
uh in years past you know to show

2167
01:26:03,030 --> 01:26:00,719
because the danger is that the jury of

2168
01:26:05,590 --> 01:26:03,040
course will just say well they did it

2169
01:26:07,350 --> 01:26:05,600
then or they did something like this

2170
01:26:08,950 --> 01:26:07,360
then so therefore they must have done

2171
01:26:11,030 --> 01:26:08,960
this and

2172
01:26:12,470 --> 01:26:11,040
that's not how we want to have a system

2173
01:26:15,270 --> 01:26:12,480
of justice so

2174
01:26:17,030 --> 01:26:15,280
the child judge did not allow some of

2175
01:26:19,590 --> 01:26:17,040
all of that evidence in that the state

2176
01:26:21,750 --> 01:26:19,600
had asked for one of that bit one piece

2177
01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:21,760
of information by the way

2178
01:26:25,270 --> 01:26:23,920
is something that people have

2179
01:26:27,830 --> 01:26:25,280
i don't think many people have heard of

2180
01:26:28,870 --> 01:26:27,840
this but the night before teresa halbach

2181
01:26:31,110 --> 01:26:28,880
was

2182
01:26:32,149 --> 01:26:31,120
murdered i believe clearly by stephen

2183
01:26:33,990 --> 01:26:32,159
avery

2184
01:26:37,510 --> 01:26:34,000
he had

2185
01:26:40,870 --> 01:26:37,520
asked his nephew's girlfriend

2186
01:26:43,350 --> 01:26:40,880
i think she was maybe 18 or so and he's

2187
01:26:46,870 --> 01:26:43,360
45 by this point

2188
01:26:49,669 --> 01:26:46,880
um asked her to come over to his house

2189
01:26:51,590 --> 01:26:49,679
basically for rough sex

2190
01:26:54,390 --> 01:26:51,600
he he asked her to come over and make

2191
01:26:57,510 --> 01:26:54,400
the bed hit real hard or something

2192
01:26:59,910 --> 01:26:57,520
uh those were his words and uh

2193
01:27:02,229 --> 01:26:59,920
you know this this is just

2194
01:27:05,510 --> 01:27:02,239
the night before teresa halbach was

2195
01:27:07,669 --> 01:27:05,520
murdered what that doesn't prove that he

2196
01:27:11,270 --> 01:27:07,679
did what he did but it's just one more

2197
01:27:13,910 --> 01:27:11,280
indication um you know a 45 year old

2198
01:27:16,550 --> 01:27:13,920
asking out of the blue really and a

2199
01:27:20,310 --> 01:27:16,560
phone call um his nephew's girl to come

2200
01:27:22,629 --> 01:27:20,320
over for for uh to have sex that night

2201
01:27:25,990 --> 01:27:22,639
what do you think of jody his former

2202
01:27:28,310 --> 01:27:26,000
girlfriend's um interview

2203
01:27:31,669 --> 01:27:28,320
where she basically says that she thinks

2204
01:27:35,910 --> 01:27:33,910
well i prosecuted jodi stokowski

2205
01:27:38,310 --> 01:27:35,920
actually for a drunk driving fourth

2206
01:27:41,110 --> 01:27:38,320
offense when she was dating stephen

2207
01:27:43,669 --> 01:27:41,120
avery and avery testified for her and

2208
01:27:47,430 --> 01:27:43,679
said he drove the car into the ditch

2209
01:27:49,910 --> 01:27:47,440
uh they didn't believe uh him but i got

2210
01:27:51,990 --> 01:27:49,920
to know the basic story of jody

2211
01:27:54,709 --> 01:27:52,000
stakowski and stephen avery

2212
01:27:57,750 --> 01:27:54,719
sort of how they met and my impression

2213
01:28:00,870 --> 01:27:57,760
was that it was sort of two lost souls

2214
01:28:02,790 --> 01:28:00,880
kind of lonely people pretty messed up

2215
01:28:04,790 --> 01:28:02,800
folks i mean a fourth offense drunk

2216
01:28:07,590 --> 01:28:04,800
driving um

2217
01:28:09,990 --> 01:28:07,600
i feel bad for jody stakowski i think

2218
01:28:11,580 --> 01:28:10,000
that she was manipulated by stephen

2219
01:28:13,110 --> 01:28:11,590
avery she was

2220
01:28:17,350 --> 01:28:13,120
[Music]

2221
01:28:20,149 --> 01:28:17,360
she was physically abused by him um

2222
01:28:23,270 --> 01:28:20,159
she said she felt pressured by avery uh

2223
01:28:25,510 --> 01:28:23,280
manipulated basically into making him

2224
01:28:26,870 --> 01:28:25,520
seem sympathetic

2225
01:28:28,950 --> 01:28:26,880
and uh

2226
01:28:32,470 --> 01:28:28,960
there's some corroborating evidence for

2227
01:28:34,629 --> 01:28:32,480
that and um it it rings very true in

2228
01:28:35,910 --> 01:28:34,639
terms of stephen avery's

2229
01:28:38,149 --> 01:28:35,920
uh

2230
01:28:41,590 --> 01:28:38,159
character um

2231
01:28:45,270 --> 01:28:41,600
he he even his own brother said that he

2232
01:28:46,550 --> 01:28:45,280
was a manipulative controlling uh person

2233
01:28:47,990 --> 01:28:46,560
there were a lot of people afraid of

2234
01:28:49,510 --> 01:28:48,000
stephen avery

2235
01:28:51,110 --> 01:28:49,520
um so

2236
01:28:55,030 --> 01:28:51,120
i i

2237
01:28:56,629 --> 01:28:55,040
i believe jody stokowski when she says

2238
01:28:58,950 --> 01:28:56,639
that uh

2239
01:29:00,709 --> 01:28:58,960
she believes steven avery did it despite

2240
01:29:03,189 --> 01:29:00,719
everything that she said in making a

2241
01:29:03,910 --> 01:29:03,199
murder um okay so now what do you think

2242
01:29:07,189 --> 01:29:03,920
of

2243
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:07,199
um the new defense attorney kathleen

2244
01:29:10,629 --> 01:29:08,400
zellner

2245
01:29:13,270 --> 01:29:10,639
i know there was a bunch of claims that

2246
01:29:16,390 --> 01:29:13,280
you know she had other suspects

2247
01:29:18,229 --> 01:29:16,400
um she had she was kind of alluding to

2248
01:29:20,390 --> 01:29:18,239
the smoking gun

2249
01:29:23,110 --> 01:29:20,400
um with this evidence the new science

2250
01:29:24,030 --> 01:29:23,120
and all that and that was late i believe

2251
01:29:27,590 --> 01:29:24,040
late

2252
01:29:29,510 --> 01:29:27,600
2016 not much is coming out of

2253
01:29:32,390 --> 01:29:29,520
that i could find online what do you

2254
01:29:34,390 --> 01:29:32,400
know about any of that

2255
01:29:36,149 --> 01:29:34,400
well i think she filed the motion for

2256
01:29:39,730 --> 01:29:36,159
new testing and i believe it was in

2257
01:29:41,830 --> 01:29:39,740
august of 2016 so last summer

2258
01:29:43,990 --> 01:29:41,840
[Music]

2259
01:29:46,310 --> 01:29:44,000
excuse me and

2260
01:29:51,030 --> 01:29:46,320
we haven't heard anything

2261
01:29:53,110 --> 01:29:51,040
from kathleen zellner about test results

2262
01:29:55,430 --> 01:29:53,120
and it's been uh

2263
01:29:56,950 --> 01:29:55,440
what is that about eight months

2264
01:30:00,550 --> 01:29:56,960
um

2265
01:30:03,189 --> 01:30:00,560
she the parties reached a stipulation uh

2266
01:30:05,830 --> 01:30:03,199
as to which item should be tested

2267
01:30:09,510 --> 01:30:05,840
uh the state agreed to certain items and

2268
01:30:10,950 --> 01:30:09,520
i think that was in december november or

2269
01:30:12,709 --> 01:30:10,960
december

2270
01:30:14,070 --> 01:30:12,719
and she thought at that time they would

2271
01:30:15,990 --> 01:30:14,080
be available

2272
01:30:18,870 --> 01:30:16,000
some of the testing or most of it within

2273
01:30:20,790 --> 01:30:18,880
60 days so we're long past that

2274
01:30:31,590 --> 01:30:20,800
um

2275
01:30:34,950 --> 01:30:31,600
or announced uh most of her feelings or

2276
01:30:36,709 --> 01:30:34,960
her her promises on this case on twitter

2277
01:30:39,350 --> 01:30:36,719
um and she

2278
01:30:42,709 --> 01:30:39,360
you know she's done more than suggested

2279
01:30:45,270 --> 01:30:42,719
that she she of some that there are

2280
01:30:47,830 --> 01:30:45,280
suspects she's all but uh

2281
01:30:50,790 --> 01:30:47,840
all but said she knows who who killed

2282
01:30:52,950 --> 01:30:50,800
teresa habakk and that she knows

2283
01:30:54,870 --> 01:30:52,960
how the how the evidence was planted

2284
01:30:56,070 --> 01:30:54,880
that the police planted evidence and she

2285
01:30:58,550 --> 01:30:56,080
knows how

2286
01:31:00,310 --> 01:30:58,560
and this testing is just to confirm what

2287
01:31:03,350 --> 01:31:00,320
she already knows and i'm just saying

2288
01:31:04,790 --> 01:31:03,360
what she has said um

2289
01:31:16,629 --> 01:31:04,800
i

2290
01:31:18,790 --> 01:31:16,639
um

2291
01:31:22,470 --> 01:31:18,800
kathleen zellner has been out tweeting

2292
01:31:24,310 --> 01:31:22,480
about police and uh planning evidence

2293
01:31:26,709 --> 01:31:24,320
and uh

2294
01:31:29,350 --> 01:31:26,719
so if

2295
01:31:31,270 --> 01:31:29,360
i i feel

2296
01:31:34,470 --> 01:31:31,280
i feel comfortable in saying this

2297
01:31:36,629 --> 01:31:34,480
because of what she has said and uh at

2298
01:31:38,550 --> 01:31:36,639
some point you know

2299
01:31:41,590 --> 01:31:38,560
this is a person who's been convicted

2300
01:31:44,070 --> 01:31:41,600
and appeals upheld twice and uh for

2301
01:31:46,310 --> 01:31:44,080
someone to be continuing in the manner

2302
01:31:47,750 --> 01:31:46,320
she is uh tweeting i think it's only

2303
01:31:50,709 --> 01:31:47,760
fair game that

2304
01:31:52,870 --> 01:31:50,719
people be allowed to comment on on what

2305
01:31:54,709 --> 01:31:52,880
i what they think she's really about

2306
01:31:57,350 --> 01:31:54,719
here and i i think

2307
01:32:00,550 --> 01:31:57,360
that unless she shows something else

2308
01:32:03,350 --> 01:32:00,560
this is pretty much about um

2309
01:32:05,590 --> 01:32:03,360
about a continuation of making a

2310
01:32:07,990 --> 01:32:05,600
murderer and making steven avery a

2311
01:32:10,310 --> 01:32:08,000
victim in the eyes of

2312
01:32:12,390 --> 01:32:10,320
millions of people

2313
01:32:14,790 --> 01:32:12,400
because unless she comes up with

2314
01:32:17,270 --> 01:32:14,800
something much firmer than speculation

2315
01:32:19,030 --> 01:32:17,280
she's not going to get the court is not

2316
01:32:19,990 --> 01:32:19,040
going to allow a new trial for steven

2317
01:32:22,229 --> 01:32:20,000
avery

2318
01:32:24,310 --> 01:32:22,239
um and then i'm sure ms elner will blame

2319
01:32:27,990 --> 01:32:24,320
the court system well she says she only

2320
01:32:29,910 --> 01:32:28,000
she claims on in an article that i read

2321
01:32:31,830 --> 01:32:29,920
that she only represents people that

2322
01:32:33,910 --> 01:32:31,840
she's 100 sure

2323
01:32:35,750 --> 01:32:33,920
that are innocent otherwise she will

2324
01:32:38,149 --> 01:32:35,760
have nothing to do with it so

2325
01:32:41,030 --> 01:32:38,159
i'm not really sure if i believe uh

2326
01:32:43,910 --> 01:32:41,040
believe that statement actually

2327
01:32:46,709 --> 01:32:43,920
yeah i i don't believe it and um i

2328
01:32:48,870 --> 01:32:46,719
believe kathleen zellner uh

2329
01:32:51,669 --> 01:32:48,880
refused to represent stephen eve well i

2330
01:32:53,510 --> 01:32:51,679
know she did uh prior to making a murder

2331
01:32:55,830 --> 01:32:53,520
one of his

2332
01:32:57,590 --> 01:32:55,840
i think that the older woman that

2333
01:32:59,990 --> 01:32:57,600
stephen became friends with had

2334
01:33:01,669 --> 01:33:00,000
contacted her and it was only after she

2335
01:33:04,470 --> 01:33:01,679
saw making a murder

2336
01:33:06,390 --> 01:33:04,480
and the outrage and the splash around

2337
01:33:08,229 --> 01:33:06,400
the world uh

2338
01:33:10,950 --> 01:33:08,239
created by making a murder that kathleen

2339
01:33:12,629 --> 01:33:10,960
zellner agreed to represent stephen yeah

2340
01:33:16,310 --> 01:33:12,639
um i

2341
01:33:19,830 --> 01:33:16,320
i totally can get that um so

2342
01:33:22,149 --> 01:33:19,840
where do you think this case is going oh

2343
01:33:24,229 --> 01:33:22,159
wait a minute before you even i didn't

2344
01:33:25,750 --> 01:33:24,239
finish the question but still

2345
01:33:27,590 --> 01:33:25,760
what do you think about

2346
01:33:29,430 --> 01:33:27,600
uh we just mentioned it making a murder

2347
01:33:33,270 --> 01:33:29,440
too season two

2348
01:33:35,189 --> 01:33:33,280
uh it's gonna focus on brendan is it

2349
01:33:37,270 --> 01:33:35,199
well i think it's gonna they claim it's

2350
01:33:38,070 --> 01:33:37,280
going to focus on both you know they're

2351
01:33:42,229 --> 01:33:38,080
they're

2352
01:33:43,669 --> 01:33:42,239
kathleen zellner they've said that

2353
01:33:45,110 --> 01:33:43,679
publicly so

2354
01:33:47,510 --> 01:33:45,120
where they

2355
01:33:49,270 --> 01:33:47,520
were sort of embedded with uh dean

2356
01:33:51,750 --> 01:33:49,280
strange and jerry butting in the first

2357
01:33:53,970 --> 01:33:51,760
case um this time it'll be kathleen

2358
01:33:55,189 --> 01:33:53,980
zellner and i think probably the

2359
01:33:57,270 --> 01:33:55,199
[Music]

2360
01:33:58,390 --> 01:33:57,280
northwestern university wrongful

2361
01:33:59,750 --> 01:33:58,400
conviction

2362
01:34:02,550 --> 01:33:59,760
center people that are representing

2363
01:34:04,709 --> 01:34:02,560
avery and avery's family there is some

2364
01:34:06,229 --> 01:34:04,719
article i read um shortly after the

2365
01:34:08,550 --> 01:34:06,239
announcement about making a murderer

2366
01:34:10,950 --> 01:34:08,560
that this time they are actually going

2367
01:34:14,390 --> 01:34:10,960
to search for the truth

2368
01:34:16,229 --> 01:34:14,400
and i i bring this up because

2369
01:34:19,030 --> 01:34:16,239
um not just in

2370
01:34:20,870 --> 01:34:19,040
in the way it sounds but because

2371
01:34:22,550 --> 01:34:20,880
they were also

2372
01:34:24,790 --> 01:34:22,560
before there was any discussion about

2373
01:34:28,149 --> 01:34:24,800
making a murderer too

2374
01:34:30,229 --> 01:34:28,159
in interviews following uh the original

2375
01:34:31,590 --> 01:34:30,239
making a murderer series they kept

2376
01:34:35,030 --> 01:34:31,600
saying

2377
01:34:37,510 --> 01:34:35,040
that you know people who are hung up on

2378
01:34:39,830 --> 01:34:37,520
whether or not stephen avery

2379
01:34:42,070 --> 01:34:39,840
committed the murder

2380
01:34:44,790 --> 01:34:42,080
they're missing the whole point um it

2381
01:34:47,590 --> 01:34:44,800
was they're really dismissive of

2382
01:34:50,470 --> 01:34:47,600
the idea that it's the truth you know

2383
01:34:54,149 --> 01:34:50,480
it's worth it to try to find the truth

2384
01:34:55,270 --> 01:34:54,159
um they said it's all about process and

2385
01:34:57,750 --> 01:34:55,280
uh

2386
01:35:00,229 --> 01:34:57,760
you know that that those of us stuck

2387
01:35:03,430 --> 01:35:00,239
with these these old-fashioned notions

2388
01:35:05,830 --> 01:35:03,440
of of truth and facts we're missing the

2389
01:35:07,750 --> 01:35:05,840
whole you know the larger point and

2390
01:35:09,590 --> 01:35:07,760
what's interesting is this time they've

2391
01:35:11,270 --> 01:35:09,600
said well okay

2392
01:35:12,790 --> 01:35:11,280
we're gonna you know we're gonna stoop

2393
01:35:16,470 --> 01:35:12,800
to your level

2394
01:35:20,070 --> 01:35:16,480
um and we're actually going to um

2395
01:35:21,350 --> 01:35:20,080
to to to try to find out uh what the

2396
01:35:22,470 --> 01:35:21,360
truth is

2397
01:35:24,709 --> 01:35:22,480
uh

2398
01:35:26,070 --> 01:35:24,719
and oh by the way we're gonna do it

2399
01:35:29,030 --> 01:35:26,080
though by

2400
01:35:30,870 --> 01:35:29,040
by hanging out with and doing it from

2401
01:35:31,830 --> 01:35:30,880
the perspective i'm sure

2402
01:35:34,709 --> 01:35:31,840
of

2403
01:35:35,590 --> 01:35:34,719
so

2404
01:35:37,110 --> 01:35:35,600
um

2405
01:35:38,950 --> 01:35:37,120
it's uh

2406
01:35:40,790 --> 01:35:38,960
it's it's a it's going to be an

2407
01:35:42,790 --> 01:35:40,800
interesting uh thing i don't believe

2408
01:35:43,990 --> 01:35:42,800
there's a lot of material yet you know

2409
01:35:47,910 --> 01:35:44,000
for them

2410
01:35:51,030 --> 01:35:47,920
to uh to to have many episodes but

2411
01:35:54,310 --> 01:35:51,040
uh kathleen zellner or it seems

2412
01:35:57,350 --> 01:35:54,320
that there is a lot of uh indication um

2413
01:35:59,830 --> 01:35:57,360
recently in the local media especially

2414
01:36:04,149 --> 01:35:59,840
that uh in the next couple weeks or

2415
01:36:06,870 --> 01:36:04,159
maybe uh three or four weeks at most um

2416
01:36:09,270 --> 01:36:06,880
this motion that she's been promising

2417
01:36:11,189 --> 01:36:09,280
uh with all these uh

2418
01:36:13,830 --> 01:36:11,199
this new information including

2419
01:36:14,950 --> 01:36:13,840
presumably the third party suspect that

2420
01:36:17,990 --> 01:36:14,960
she

2421
01:36:19,990 --> 01:36:18,000
uh almost knows for a certain did it um

2422
01:36:22,390 --> 01:36:20,000
that should all be coming out pretty

2423
01:36:24,390 --> 01:36:22,400
soon so we'll just have to wait and see

2424
01:36:26,709 --> 01:36:24,400
someone wants to know is

2425
01:36:30,629 --> 01:36:26,719
there going to be an end bank review

2426
01:36:36,149 --> 01:36:34,070
it uh either party can request it so

2427
01:36:38,790 --> 01:36:36,159
right now it's a three-judge panel they

2428
01:36:40,470 --> 01:36:38,800
had oral arguments um they're really

2429
01:36:43,990 --> 01:36:40,480
interesting actually you can hear them

2430
01:36:45,030 --> 01:36:44,000
online in the 7th circuit

2431
01:36:47,189 --> 01:36:45,040
but

2432
01:36:50,709 --> 01:36:47,199
either party depend

2433
01:36:55,270 --> 01:36:53,109
in the in the upcoming decision whenever

2434
01:36:57,350 --> 01:36:55,280
that's released by the uh three judge

2435
01:36:58,870 --> 01:36:57,360
panel they can appeal

2436
01:37:01,510 --> 01:36:58,880
uh for

2437
01:37:03,830 --> 01:37:01,520
for an in-bank decision from the entire

2438
01:37:05,510 --> 01:37:03,840
seventh circuit or they can go directly

2439
01:37:07,750 --> 01:37:05,520
and attempt to

2440
01:37:10,310 --> 01:37:07,760
get the united states supreme court

2441
01:37:12,629 --> 01:37:10,320
to hear the case those are few and far

2442
01:37:14,709 --> 01:37:12,639
between

2443
01:37:16,550 --> 01:37:14,719
you know not many cases compared to all

2444
01:37:18,629 --> 01:37:16,560
of the cases

2445
01:37:22,550 --> 01:37:18,639
that are requested

2446
01:37:25,910 --> 01:37:22,560
on a petition and a writ of cert um

2447
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:25,920
get uh get heard by the us supreme court

2448
01:37:28,950 --> 01:37:27,280
so i would

2449
01:37:30,870 --> 01:37:28,960
i don't i don't have any inside

2450
01:37:33,510 --> 01:37:30,880
information here but i would suspect

2451
01:37:36,149 --> 01:37:33,520
whoever loses will ask for the

2452
01:37:39,510 --> 01:37:36,159
for the complete seventh circuit to

2453
01:37:40,870 --> 01:37:39,520
listen to to uh to hear that okay now

2454
01:37:42,550 --> 01:37:40,880
i'm gonna

2455
01:37:43,350 --> 01:37:42,560
kind of wrap up the show a little bit

2456
01:37:47,189 --> 01:37:43,360
here

2457
01:37:49,510 --> 01:37:47,199
is going to be in another year do you

2458
01:37:51,030 --> 01:37:49,520
think the the whole hype of this will

2459
01:37:53,109 --> 01:37:51,040
die down and

2460
01:37:55,350 --> 01:37:53,119
eventually kind of go away when nothing

2461
01:37:57,830 --> 01:37:55,360
happens or do you think uh what do you

2462
01:37:59,830 --> 01:37:57,840
think is going to happen

2463
01:38:03,270 --> 01:37:59,840
i think it's you know i think it's in

2464
01:38:05,590 --> 01:38:03,280
two um in my opinion this it's sort of

2465
01:38:06,629 --> 01:38:05,600
in two separate tracks here one is the

2466
01:38:15,189 --> 01:38:06,639
court

2467
01:38:17,350 --> 01:38:15,199
its very specific issues and it's in the

2468
01:38:19,590 --> 01:38:17,360
federal court system and then the dav

2469
01:38:21,990 --> 01:38:19,600
the avery case has its very specific

2470
01:38:24,950 --> 01:38:22,000
issues and is in the state court system

2471
01:38:26,550 --> 01:38:24,960
right back at the trial court level so

2472
01:38:28,790 --> 01:38:26,560
you know we're going to watch those

2473
01:38:31,189 --> 01:38:28,800
things develop we've talked about dassey

2474
01:38:33,510 --> 01:38:31,199
case i think it's anybody's guess where

2475
01:38:36,470 --> 01:38:33,520
the seventh circuit goes with it

2476
01:38:38,149 --> 01:38:36,480
um and that the avery case as i

2477
01:38:39,590 --> 01:38:38,159
mentioned i think there

2478
01:38:42,950 --> 01:38:39,600
a lot of people think there's going to

2479
01:38:45,109 --> 01:38:42,960
be some action fairly soon i think that

2480
01:38:47,109 --> 01:38:45,119
will be a

2481
01:38:49,590 --> 01:38:47,119
a huge media event

2482
01:38:51,830 --> 01:38:49,600
um no matter what kathleen's owner puts

2483
01:38:52,950 --> 01:38:51,840
in her motion uh it's going to be very

2484
01:38:55,350 --> 01:38:52,960
interesting

2485
01:38:57,350 --> 01:38:55,360
and the court can grant a hearing there

2486
01:38:59,510 --> 01:38:57,360
may be a it's up to the court they don't

2487
01:39:01,910 --> 01:38:59,520
have to have a hearing but if there's

2488
01:39:03,510 --> 01:39:01,920
much to ms zellner's motion i would

2489
01:39:05,590 --> 01:39:03,520
think there would be a hearing on her

2490
01:39:07,350 --> 01:39:05,600
request for a new trial

2491
01:39:09,910 --> 01:39:07,360
and whoever

2492
01:39:12,629 --> 01:39:09,920
assumed uh for a minute that the trial

2493
01:39:14,790 --> 01:39:12,639
court uh the judge in the avery case

2494
01:39:16,790 --> 01:39:14,800
says nope no new trial

2495
01:39:18,070 --> 01:39:16,800
i'm gonna deny your motion for a new

2496
01:39:20,070 --> 01:39:18,080
trial then

2497
01:39:23,109 --> 01:39:20,080
i'm sure that will be appealed up to the

2498
01:39:25,030 --> 01:39:23,119
court of appeals in wisconsin first and

2499
01:39:27,030 --> 01:39:25,040
so we'll have to wait for a year or so

2500
01:39:29,109 --> 01:39:27,040
for that and then

2501
01:39:31,189 --> 01:39:29,119
if they lose again they'll try the state

2502
01:39:33,350 --> 01:39:31,199
supreme court i would think and usually

2503
01:39:34,709 --> 01:39:33,360
a state supreme court very rarely will

2504
01:39:37,990 --> 01:39:34,719
hear

2505
01:39:39,350 --> 01:39:38,000
that many cases from the court of

2506
01:39:41,109 --> 01:39:39,360
appeals so

2507
01:39:43,510 --> 01:39:41,119
it'll have to go through that process

2508
01:39:46,229 --> 01:39:43,520
and then um i'm sure it'll go to federal

2509
01:39:48,470 --> 01:39:46,239
court on a rid of habeas corpus so it

2510
01:39:50,149 --> 01:39:48,480
could go on and on in the court of law i

2511
01:39:51,430 --> 01:39:50,159
think in the court of public opinion

2512
01:39:54,310 --> 01:39:51,440
which is where

2513
01:39:56,870 --> 01:39:54,320
i believe ms zellner and making a murder

2514
01:40:01,109 --> 01:39:58,550
that's got a different

2515
01:40:03,590 --> 01:40:01,119
probably a shorter

2516
01:40:04,870 --> 01:40:03,600
time span i would think

2517
01:40:06,830 --> 01:40:04,880
you know

2518
01:40:12,229 --> 01:40:06,840
i would imagine after this

2519
01:40:15,270 --> 01:40:12,239
next series uh of uh motions and uh

2520
01:40:17,510 --> 01:40:15,280
decisions and then making a murder too

2521
01:40:19,350 --> 01:40:17,520
um i would think at that point it would

2522
01:40:20,870 --> 01:40:19,360
it would die down yes you know i have a

2523
01:40:23,030 --> 01:40:20,880
friend that lives

2524
01:40:24,790 --> 01:40:23,040
in appleton out there

2525
01:40:26,470 --> 01:40:24,800
and he

2526
01:40:27,910 --> 01:40:26,480
was following this case long before

2527
01:40:30,550 --> 01:40:27,920
making a murder

2528
01:40:32,709 --> 01:40:30,560
uh came out but uh

2529
01:40:34,790 --> 01:40:32,719
he said you know everything has you know

2530
01:40:36,470 --> 01:40:34,800
it's like totally it seemed to him like

2531
01:40:38,629 --> 01:40:36,480
things were totally different i think

2532
01:40:39,510 --> 01:40:38,639
he's listening to the show tonight but

2533
01:40:41,750 --> 01:40:39,520
um

2534
01:40:43,590 --> 01:40:41,760
you know once making a murderer happen

2535
01:40:45,430 --> 01:40:43,600
like there was a whole different air to

2536
01:40:46,950 --> 01:40:45,440
the situation

2537
01:40:48,550 --> 01:40:46,960
and you were

2538
01:40:50,310 --> 01:40:48,560
behind the scenes do you feel the same

2539
01:40:52,020 --> 01:40:50,320
way

2540
01:40:53,270 --> 01:40:52,030
oh it's incredible um

2541
01:40:55,350 --> 01:40:53,280
[Music]

2542
01:40:58,470 --> 01:40:55,360
it just

2543
01:41:01,109 --> 01:40:58,480
you know what what it has done to

2544
01:41:04,070 --> 01:41:01,119
you you can be traveling in a foreign

2545
01:41:06,070 --> 01:41:04,080
country or in in any state in the

2546
01:41:08,229 --> 01:41:06,080
country and you know where are you from

2547
01:41:09,030 --> 01:41:08,239
when you say manitowoc and

2548
01:41:10,950 --> 01:41:09,040
uh

2549
01:41:13,510 --> 01:41:10,960
more often than not of course people

2550
01:41:16,629 --> 01:41:13,520
know of it from making a murder it's

2551
01:41:18,390 --> 01:41:16,639
really been tough on the community um

2552
01:41:21,830 --> 01:41:18,400
you know we go about our business it's a

2553
01:41:24,550 --> 01:41:21,840
busy court system and it's a busy city

2554
01:41:26,950 --> 01:41:24,560
and uh you know people aren't are

2555
01:41:29,590 --> 01:41:26,960
damaged by making a murder but

2556
01:41:31,350 --> 01:41:29,600
um the city's reputation has you know

2557
01:41:32,790 --> 01:41:31,360
and it really is a shame because it's a

2558
01:41:35,590 --> 01:41:32,800
wonderful place

2559
01:41:38,149 --> 01:41:35,600
uh to live and uh there have been people

2560
01:41:39,590 --> 01:41:38,159
who won't move here now um you know the

2561
01:41:43,510 --> 01:41:39,600
reputation

2562
01:41:45,910 --> 01:41:43,520
of the city just from this this uh this

2563
01:41:47,669 --> 01:41:45,920
documentary and it's it's has real

2564
01:41:49,430 --> 01:41:47,679
effects on real people

2565
01:41:51,830 --> 01:41:49,440
um especially of course the police

2566
01:41:54,070 --> 01:41:51,840
officers and the um

2567
01:41:56,310 --> 01:41:54,080
and and the victims family the haubach

2568
01:41:58,070 --> 01:41:56,320
family that's the real tragedy and and

2569
01:41:59,189 --> 01:41:58,080
the victim in the first case too penny

2570
01:42:00,470 --> 01:41:59,199
bernson

2571
01:42:03,830 --> 01:42:00,480
um

2572
01:42:06,470 --> 01:42:03,840
they they put up a photo of her

2573
01:42:08,470 --> 01:42:06,480
uh when her face was bloodied and

2574
01:42:10,550 --> 01:42:08,480
pummeled basically by the

2575
01:42:12,629 --> 01:42:10,560
by gregory allen the real assailant in

2576
01:42:14,070 --> 01:42:12,639
that when avery was wrongly convicted a

2577
01:42:16,229 --> 01:42:14,080
photo that's never been out there and

2578
01:42:18,790 --> 01:42:16,239
her children had to see it

2579
01:42:20,070 --> 01:42:18,800
for the first time so it's it's hurt a

2580
01:42:22,709 --> 01:42:20,080
lot of people

2581
01:42:24,790 --> 01:42:22,719
um it is you know as well intended as it

2582
01:42:27,270 --> 01:42:24,800
is and they did bring

2583
01:42:28,870 --> 01:42:27,280
i think the attention to some of the

2584
01:42:30,629 --> 01:42:28,880
problems the flaws of the criminal

2585
01:42:33,270 --> 01:42:30,639
justice system and

2586
01:42:34,790 --> 01:42:33,280
and i agree there are many

2587
01:42:36,070 --> 01:42:34,800
but you know

2588
01:42:38,149 --> 01:42:36,080
uh

2589
01:42:40,709 --> 01:42:38,159
despite that they've just brought a lot

2590
01:42:43,590 --> 01:42:40,719
of harm to a lot of people and

2591
01:42:45,750 --> 01:42:43,600
have not served the truth uh so if the

2592
01:42:48,550 --> 01:42:45,760
truth matters at all this uh this has

2593
01:42:49,510 --> 01:42:48,560
been a a real disaster yeah i'm sure i

2594
01:42:51,109 --> 01:42:49,520
mean

2595
01:42:53,109 --> 01:42:51,119
uh communities pulled together it's a

2596
01:42:54,709 --> 01:42:53,119
farming community mostly

2597
01:42:57,430 --> 01:42:54,719
you know with a

2598
01:43:00,070 --> 01:42:57,440
salvage yard right in the middle

2599
01:43:01,109 --> 01:43:00,080
of it and uh yeah it's uh

2600
01:43:03,030 --> 01:43:01,119
um

2601
01:43:05,430 --> 01:43:03,040
you know i i said in the beginning you

2602
01:43:08,310 --> 01:43:05,440
can't make this stuff up and

2603
01:43:11,510 --> 01:43:08,320
it is the most incredible case um if you

2604
01:43:12,950 --> 01:43:11,520
just kind of winding up again here

2605
01:43:14,870 --> 01:43:12,960
if you had to think of another case the

2606
01:43:17,590 --> 01:43:14,880
only thing i can think of is oj you know

2607
01:43:20,709 --> 01:43:17,600
they had this kind of publicity but

2608
01:43:23,270 --> 01:43:20,719
um but going back to what happened with

2609
01:43:24,709 --> 01:43:23,280
him the first time had you ever seen in

2610
01:43:26,790 --> 01:43:24,719
the innocence

2611
01:43:28,629 --> 01:43:26,800
project have you ever seen

2612
01:43:30,310 --> 01:43:28,639
a case that was

2613
01:43:31,590 --> 01:43:30,320
so poorly

2614
01:43:34,870 --> 01:43:31,600
uh

2615
01:43:37,350 --> 01:43:34,880
such an atrocity as as his first

2616
01:43:41,430 --> 01:43:37,360
case where he stayed in jail all that

2617
01:43:45,750 --> 01:43:44,229
oh i think it's one of the uh i have

2618
01:43:48,070 --> 01:43:45,760
never seen anything like that i don't

2619
01:43:51,109 --> 01:43:48,080
think most people have um you know

2620
01:43:53,830 --> 01:43:51,119
wrongful convictions come in all

2621
01:43:56,070 --> 01:43:53,840
uh all shapes and sizes but this is one

2622
01:43:58,390 --> 01:43:56,080
where um

2623
01:44:00,390 --> 01:43:58,400
i i and a lot of people who have looked

2624
01:44:02,229 --> 01:44:00,400
at it very carefully

2625
01:44:04,070 --> 01:44:02,239
actually believed that the

2626
01:44:06,229 --> 01:44:04,080
sheriff and the da at the time within a

2627
01:44:07,750 --> 01:44:06,239
couple days of arresting avery they knew

2628
01:44:11,270 --> 01:44:07,760
he didn't do it

2629
01:44:13,430 --> 01:44:11,280
um and worse or equally bad not worse

2630
01:44:15,430 --> 01:44:13,440
but they knew who really did it

2631
01:44:18,149 --> 01:44:15,440
and he was even more dangerous than

2632
01:44:20,390 --> 01:44:18,159
avery was at the time and he went on to

2633
01:44:21,990 --> 01:44:20,400
brutally rape a woman and green bay

2634
01:44:23,990 --> 01:44:22,000
entered her apartment

2635
01:44:27,350 --> 01:44:24,000
broke in and raped her and is still

2636
01:44:29,590 --> 01:44:27,360
doing time because of that and

2637
01:44:33,109 --> 01:44:29,600
it's one more irony of this whole thing

2638
01:44:35,510 --> 01:44:33,119
is that was the details of that the real

2639
01:44:37,109 --> 01:44:35,520
injustice here were were left out of

2640
01:44:39,270 --> 01:44:37,119
making a murder you know there was this

2641
01:44:41,109 --> 01:44:39,280
vague reference to this old case and the

2642
01:44:41,910 --> 01:44:41,119
injustice

2643
01:44:43,270 --> 01:44:41,920
but

2644
01:44:44,310 --> 01:44:43,280
um

2645
01:44:47,030 --> 01:44:44,320
you know

2646
01:44:50,149 --> 01:44:47,040
the people now who weren't even here

2647
01:44:52,070 --> 01:44:50,159
then who had nothing to do with that

2648
01:44:54,070 --> 01:44:52,080
and it's a complicated thing

2649
01:44:55,030 --> 01:44:54,080
to explain all that but

2650
01:44:57,189 --> 01:44:55,040
um

2651
01:44:59,510 --> 01:44:57,199
they're the ones taking the blame for

2652
01:45:01,669 --> 01:44:59,520
for what happened years ago and that's

2653
01:45:03,109 --> 01:45:01,679
the tragedy the

2654
01:45:04,470 --> 01:45:03,119
the um

2655
01:45:07,430 --> 01:45:04,480
and a friend of mine told me you know

2656
01:45:09,270 --> 01:45:07,440
with all the the the criticism that the

2657
01:45:11,430 --> 01:45:09,280
sheriff's department was taking soon

2658
01:45:13,750 --> 01:45:11,440
after making murder if they were smart

2659
01:45:16,950 --> 01:45:13,760
they would have taken that criticism and

2660
01:45:19,669 --> 01:45:16,960
shine the spotlight back to what really

2661
01:45:21,350 --> 01:45:19,679
was an injustice um and

2662
01:45:24,070 --> 01:45:21,360
not run away from it you know it's

2663
01:45:26,870 --> 01:45:24,080
another lesson in law enforcement they

2664
01:45:29,030 --> 01:45:26,880
hate to admit any flaws

2665
01:45:31,510 --> 01:45:29,040
and there would have been nothing wrong

2666
01:45:33,990 --> 01:45:31,520
with saying that the former sheriff and

2667
01:45:35,990 --> 01:45:34,000
the district attorney at the time

2668
01:45:39,350 --> 01:45:36,000
uh handled it

2669
01:45:41,510 --> 01:45:39,360
incredibly bad and that and and not just

2670
01:45:43,669 --> 01:45:41,520
handled it bad as a negligent that

2671
01:45:45,189 --> 01:45:43,679
there's a lot of evidence that

2672
01:45:47,750 --> 01:45:45,199
that um

2673
01:45:49,669 --> 01:45:47,760
that this was a horrible injustice

2674
01:45:51,750 --> 01:45:49,679
perpetrated

2675
01:45:54,310 --> 01:45:51,760
on the part of the sheriff and the

2676
01:45:57,590 --> 01:45:54,320
prosecutor intentionally on avery and

2677
01:45:58,790 --> 01:45:57,600
his family you know so if you admit that

2678
01:45:59,669 --> 01:45:58,800
you can

2679
01:46:05,910 --> 01:45:59,679
then

2680
01:46:06,790 --> 01:46:05,920
now and there it really is the case

2681
01:46:08,870 --> 01:46:06,800
um

2682
01:46:12,070 --> 01:46:08,880
that that this

2683
01:46:14,550 --> 01:46:12,080
is nothing like this investigation was

2684
01:46:15,270 --> 01:46:14,560
nothing like the entire entire intent of

2685
01:46:17,910 --> 01:46:15,280
this

2686
01:46:20,790 --> 01:46:17,920
it was to find out what what happened

2687
01:46:22,790 --> 01:46:20,800
and uh it had no resemblance to what

2688
01:46:26,070 --> 01:46:22,800
happened 30 years ago right

2689
01:46:28,629 --> 01:46:26,080
well um i really appreciate it um it's

2690
01:46:31,590 --> 01:46:28,639
been a really good evening i enjoyed

2691
01:46:33,109 --> 01:46:31,600
talking to you and you know we uh i say

2692
01:46:35,590 --> 01:46:33,119
we most of us

2693
01:46:36,470 --> 01:46:35,600
have only seen this through the eyes of

2694
01:46:40,149 --> 01:46:36,480
our

2695
01:46:42,070 --> 01:46:40,159
uh of making a murderer and uh and then

2696
01:46:43,270 --> 01:46:42,080
people like myself may look into it a

2697
01:46:45,430 --> 01:46:43,280
little more than

2698
01:46:46,709 --> 01:46:45,440
that but uh it's really good to talk to

2699
01:46:48,629 --> 01:46:46,719
someone that

2700
01:46:49,590 --> 01:46:48,639
saw it from the inside saw before it

2701
01:46:53,510 --> 01:46:49,600
became

2702
01:46:55,910 --> 01:46:53,520
a smash uh hit on netflix so can you

2703
01:46:58,149 --> 01:46:55,920
give the uh listening audience out there

2704
01:46:59,430 --> 01:46:58,159
where they would find your new book

2705
01:47:01,669 --> 01:46:59,440
indefensible

2706
01:47:02,709 --> 01:47:01,679
on amazon do you have a website as well

2707
01:47:05,750 --> 01:47:02,719
yeah it's on

2708
01:47:17,750 --> 01:47:05,760
i

2709
01:47:20,229 --> 01:47:17,760
but

2710
01:47:23,189 --> 01:47:20,239
um it's in barnes and noble in stores

2711
01:47:24,470 --> 01:47:23,199
and on amazon and as is the prior book

2712
01:47:27,430 --> 01:47:24,480
published by the american bar

2713
01:47:29,750 --> 01:47:27,440
association the innocent killer uh

2714
01:47:32,390 --> 01:47:29,760
so that would be great if if folks are

2715
01:47:35,590 --> 01:47:32,400
interested and i apologize for the for

2716
01:47:37,990 --> 01:47:35,600
the technical mess up uh to begin with

2717
01:47:38,629 --> 01:47:38,000
the skype uh thing is a bit new here for

2718
01:47:39,590 --> 01:47:38,639
me

2719
01:47:41,750 --> 01:47:39,600
very good

2720
01:47:44,149 --> 01:47:41,760
all right well i want to thank everyone

2721
01:47:46,790 --> 01:47:44,159
in our uh in our chat room as well for

2722
01:47:49,030 --> 01:47:46,800
participating tonight thanks so much uh

2723
01:47:51,750 --> 01:47:49,040
again it was a real pleasure and i'll

2724
01:47:53,830 --> 01:47:51,760
talk to you soon michael

2725
01:47:55,350 --> 01:47:53,840
okay thank you

2726
01:47:57,750 --> 01:47:55,360
all right everyone again i want to thank

2727
01:47:59,430 --> 01:47:57,760
you for joining in the chat room i know

2728
01:48:01,350 --> 01:47:59,440
there was a lot of questions i didn't

2729
01:48:02,470 --> 01:48:01,360
get to i apologize for that

2730
01:48:04,870 --> 01:48:02,480
and uh

2731
01:48:07,830 --> 01:48:04,880
we will be back next week with randall

2732
01:48:09,350 --> 01:48:07,840
carlson about earth changes it should be

2733
01:48:12,550 --> 01:48:09,360
an interesting show

2734
01:48:14,629 --> 01:48:12,560
and uh i want to thank you all again

2735
01:48:16,229 --> 01:48:14,639
once again for being here and

2736
01:48:21,310 --> 01:48:16,239
participating